Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Articles: CoffeeGeek Columnist Feedback
Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
Rancilio Silvia - How to
Step by step guide for easy brewing and steaming with the Rancilio Silvia
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Articles > Columnist... > Recapping the...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 2 of 3 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
andys
Senior Member
andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 861
Location: NY
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Speedster, Londinium 1
Grinder: EK-43,Robur, HG One, M3
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: various
Roaster: PIDed Popper
Posted Sun Sep 21, 2008, 5:42am
Subject: Re: Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
 

MarkPrince Said:

Andy, this ain't drip coffee. It's a different brewing method, and in fact, is more akin to the Clover than to a drip coffee maker.

Remember, the SCAA has no set standard (yet) for press pot coffee or full immersion brewed coffee. Their only published standard (which, IMO, I think should be evolved) is for flow through drip, AFAIK.

Posted September 17, 2008 link

First of all, I was informed rather passionately by a coffee friend that my "SCAA standards" statement was a misnomer. The friend said that SCAA has merely passed on standards that were laboriously created by various other groups over many years (Norwegian Coffee Center, Specialty Coffee Assoc. of Europe, Midwest Research Institute, Coffee Brewing Center, George Howell Coffee Co, etc).

In any case, although you have a lot more experience in non-espresso brewing methods than I do, I am skeptical of your claim that Clover, drip, vacpot, Aero, French press, gym sock and other non-espresso methods each require their own standard. Of course they require somewhat different techniques for optimizing results, but I believe they all share a common process: achieving a balanced brew by extracting 18-20% of the ground coffee into an appropriately diluted cup using pressures under 0.5 bar.

Espresso, on the other hand, is a different animal, using much higher pressures and a very "UN-full immersion process" to produce a totally distinct beverage.

Having said these things, I would speculate that your preference for highly overdosed, highly underextracted Clover and Aeropress cups is analogous to many people's preference for highly overdosed, highly underextracted espresso ristrettos.

In matters like these, there are no "right" answers, only personal preferences. But again, I would say it's very likely a mistake for young coffee whippersnappers like you and me to throw out all the classic coffee research in favor of our own taste of the moment.

Why not continue brewing for a decade or two and see if you still have a taste for the coffee styles you are drinking now? I would bet that your tastes will change over time, probably more in line with the aforementioned coffee standards.

 
-AndyS
picture page:  http://flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
rasqual
Senior Member
rasqual
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,076
Location: Chicago area
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: *$ Barista, non-pressurized
Grinder: SMP
Vac Pot: Yama, Aeropress
Drip: Porcelain Melitta 103, Hario
Roaster: "ring roaster", mod popper
Posted Tue Sep 23, 2008, 3:39am
Subject: Re: Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
 

andys Said:

Having said these things, I would speculate that your preference for highly overdosed, highly underextracted Clover and Aeropress cups is analogous to many people's preference for highly overdosed, highly underextracted espresso ristrettos.

Posted September 21, 2008 link

I could be mistaken, but my memory of conversations in the Aero thread suggests that Mark was early a critic of the underextraction that Alan Adler's methods with the Aeropress encourage. Others, like myself, never courted that end of the extraction spectrum with the Aero, preferring a full extraction.

I infer from Mark's remarks that he's dialed in that fuller extraction pretty well.

The Aero itself is capable of any extraction degree one prefers, and identical results can be achieved by varying means. Personally, using polyester felt, I prefer to go much finer with the grind, than to go coarse and increase the wet time. But that's possibly because most of my Aeropressings are a break from work, and I fear that a longer extraction duration might allow my inbox to grow beyond reason in the interim.    ;-)
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
AlanAdler
Senior Member
AlanAdler
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 719
Location: Palo Alto, Calif
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: AeroPress
Grinder: Baratza - Virtuoso
Roaster: Fresh Roast SR-500
Posted Tue Sep 23, 2008, 10:20am
Subject: Re: Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
 

andys Said:

... I would speculate that your preference for highly overdosed, highly underextracted Clover and Aeropress cups ......

Posted September 21, 2008 link

Hi Andy,

I have measured extraction of many AeroPress shots.  

In the beginning, before I learned the art of pressing gently, I measured about 16%.  But even a year after the AeroPress entered the market I was still learning to press more gently.  Gentle pressing allows a finer grind and higher extraction.

I now routinely get 20% extraction with 175F water and about 30 seconds press time.  And with an even finer grind and longer press time I've gone as high as 26% extraction with 175F water.  

Interestingly, I did not taste any harshening of the flavor at 26% extraction.  I believe that was due to the 175F water and the relatively short wet time.

Best regards,

Alan
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
andys
Senior Member
andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 861
Location: NY
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Speedster, Londinium 1
Grinder: EK-43,Robur, HG One, M3
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: various
Roaster: PIDed Popper
Posted Tue Sep 23, 2008, 3:30pm
Subject: Re: Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
 

rasqual Said:

The Aero itself is capable of any extraction degree one prefers

Posted September 23, 2008 link

AlanAdler Said:

I have measured extraction of many AeroPress shots.  

In the beginning, before I learned the art of pressing gently, I measured about 16%.  But even a year after the AeroPress entered the market I was still learning to press more gently.  Gentle pressing allows a finer grind and higher extraction.

I now routinely get 20% extraction with 175F water and about 30 seconds press time.  And with an even finer grind and longer press time I've gone as high as 26% extraction with 175F water.

Posted September 23, 2008 link

Hi Scott, hi Alan, thanks for the interesting replies.

Question for both of you: exactly how did you measure extraction percent? It appears there are several methods. My measurements are made by first drying a ground coffee sample to determine the moisture-free mass. Then I prepare an espresso or aeropress coffee, dry the spent grounds, and see how much mass has been lost.

That is the method used in my report posted earlier this year. One conclusion then was that the Aeropress at a dose of 6.5 grams dry coffee and a 6% brewing ratio (dry coffee/water) could easily extract 20% solids. I'm just wondering how much solids Mark is extracting when the dose is 16-18 grams at an 8-9% brew ratio.

 
-AndyS
picture page:  http://flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
AlanAdler
Senior Member
AlanAdler
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 719
Location: Palo Alto, Calif
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: AeroPress
Grinder: Baratza - Virtuoso
Roaster: Fresh Roast SR-500
Posted Tue Sep 23, 2008, 7:04pm
Subject: Re: Measuring Extraction
 

Hi Andy,

I began by weighing dried coffee grounds before and after brewing.  But after I discovered that Brix is an excellent way to measure TDS, I switched to using Brix with this formula:

Extraction percent = 0.85 x Brix x (input water wt) / (input coffee weight)

It's based on the fact that percent TDS = 0.85 x Brix, as determined by Randy Pope -- chemist at Bunn.

Best,

Alan
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
rasqual
Senior Member
rasqual
Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 1,076
Location: Chicago area
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: *$ Barista, non-pressurized
Grinder: SMP
Vac Pot: Yama, Aeropress
Drip: Porcelain Melitta 103, Hario
Roaster: "ring roaster", mod popper
Posted Tue Sep 23, 2008, 8:48pm
Subject: Re: Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
 

andys Said:

Question for both of you: exactly how did you measure extraction percent?
...
One conclusion then was that the Aeropress at a dose of 6.5 grams dry coffee and a 6% brewing ratio (dry coffee/water) could easily extract 20% solids. I'm just wondering how much solids Mark is extracting when the dose is 16-18 grams at an 8-9% brew ratio.

Posted September 23, 2008 link

Ah, hadn't seen that write-up. Nice. I'm not sure about Mark's scenario.

BTW, I've also concluded that a whirly is "just fine, thank you" for Aeropressing -- at least, with poly (which allows great throughput with a much finer grind). I can't prove it with my budget, but I'm pretty sure that a whirly grinds far more consistently when the grind in it is taken quite fine, thus allowing for a consistent extraction. The key, then, is terminating it on time, and quickly. High-throughput filtration allows the latter, and sheer genius ensures the former.   ;-)

We use a burr grinder at the market, but every day at work I use a whirly. At home I only do espresso any more, but that's rare simply because I'm so rarely home.   :-/

I'll defer to Alan on real measurements; my only judgment is subjective based on cupping (which, with my palate, is a doubtful undertaking but it's all I have to work with just now). Jim Schulman was doing some mad extraction measurements a couple years ago, as I recall -- splitting pucks and stuff (espresso, not Aero). Weren't you in on that? Excellent methods, IMO.
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
andys
Senior Member
andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 861
Location: NY
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Speedster, Londinium 1
Grinder: EK-43,Robur, HG One, M3
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: various
Roaster: PIDed Popper
Posted Wed Sep 24, 2008, 1:13am
Subject: Re: Measuring Extraction
 

AlanAdler Said:

I began by weighing dried coffee grounds before and after brewing.  But after I discovered that Brix is an excellent way to measure TDS, I switched to using Brix with this formula:

Extraction percent = 0.85 x Brix x (input water wt) / (input coffee weight)

It's based on the fact that percent TDS = 0.85 x Brix, as determined by Randy Pope -- chemist at Bunn.

Posted September 23, 2008 link


Yup, I'm familiar with the formula, and lately I've been experimenting to see how well it correlates with the results of the drying technique (for aeropress coffee, and for espresso, too). But, it seems to me, the formula should be a little different than what you posted:

Extraction percent = 0.85 x Brix x (beverage wt) / (input coffee weight)

 
-AndyS
picture page:  http://flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
nickcho
Senior Member
nickcho
Joined: 7 Nov 2002
Posts: 435
Location: Redwood City, CA
Expertise: Pro Barista

Espresso: this
Grinder: that
Vac Pot: yes
Drip: drop
Roaster: Trish!
Posted Wed Sep 24, 2008, 4:45am
Subject: Re: Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
 

andys Said:

First of all, I was informed rather passionately by a coffee friend that my "SCAA standards" statement was a misnomer. The friend said that SCAA has merely passed on standards that were laboriously created by various other groups over many years (Norwegian Coffee Center, Specialty Coffee Assoc. of Europe, Midwest Research Institute, Coffee Brewing Center, George Howell Coffee Co, etc).

Posted September 21, 2008 link

Just an FYI, I asked a "coffee friend" about this myself, and here was his response:

The current SCAA standards are the culmination of the work of a wide variety of groups, including the Norwegian Coffee Center.  The bulk of the material and testing used to develop the standards came from the Coffee Development Group, an organization funded by the ICO, that disbanded after the collapse of the ICA, and closed all international offices of the CDG in late 1990.  Many individuals, including Ted Lingle (former SCAA Exec. Director) contributed to the development and publication of those standards.   Additional work has taken place over the years, most recently as set of experiments designed to determine if new parameters of extraction needed to be set for dark roasts.  You should also know that the SCAA owns the US rights to all of the research and publications of the CDG.

Finally, one of the principal differences in the SCAA and NCC standards is a slightly weaker cup for the SCAA.  This reflects consumer preference in the US as measured in impaneled consumer tastings.  It may indeed be time to revisit these tastings, although I suspect that they will yield the same results today.  In any event, the science is the science.  No one owns it, and all can repeat it.  As a side note, the SCAE didn't exist until long after the SCAA published and promoted these standards.


My curiosity was (understandably) piqued... and I wanted a more informed source for this. :-P

 
www.wreckingballcoffee.com - www.portafilter.net
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Contact via AOL Instant Messenger Contact via MSN Messenger Link to this post
AlanAdler
Senior Member
AlanAdler
Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 719
Location: Palo Alto, Calif
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: AeroPress
Grinder: Baratza - Virtuoso
Roaster: Fresh Roast SR-500
Posted Wed Sep 24, 2008, 12:40pm
Subject: Re: Measuring Extraction
 

andys Said:

Yup, I'm familiar with the formula, and lately I've been experimenting to see how well it correlates with the results of the drying technique (for aeropress coffee, and for espresso, too). But, it seems to me, the formula should be a little different than what you posted:

Extraction percent = 0.85 x Brix x (beverage wt) / (input coffee weight)

Posted September 24, 2008 link

Hi Andy,

Your formula fails to account for the brew trapped in the used grounds.  
For AeroPress, that amounts to about 1x to 1.2x the weight of dry grounds.
For drip it's about 2x.

My formula assumes that the brew strength of the liquid trapped in the used grounds is about the same as the part you drink.  I've verified that to be correct.

Best,

Alan
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
andys
Senior Member
andys
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 861
Location: NY
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Speedster, Londinium 1
Grinder: EK-43,Robur, HG One, M3
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: various
Roaster: PIDed Popper
Posted Wed Sep 24, 2008, 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Recapping the Summer by Mark Prince
 

nickcho Said:

Additional work has taken place over the years, most recently as set of experiments designed to determine if new parameters of extraction needed to be set for dark roasts.

Posted September 24, 2008 link

Hi Nick, thanks for the info. Actually, I have no expertise to agree or disagree with what your "coffee friend" said vs what my "coffee friend" said. If there's a tussle, I guess the intellectual property attorneys will sort it all out in the end....

 
-AndyS
picture page:  http://flickr.com/photos/andy_s/sets/
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
showing page 2 of 3 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Articles > Columnist... > Recapping the...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Great Espresso at Home
Curated selection of the best machines from La Spaziale, Izzo, Quick Mill, La Marzocco & more.
www.clivecoffee.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.397498130798)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+