Posted Tue Oct 14, 2003, 4:17am Subject: Does any one out there (in America) really care the coffee they drink???
Well, here is a scenario for you guys (that happened to me today). Let's see what you guys think. It is an interesting exercise, I think:
I went to 2 coffee shops today (in my local area). The 2 shops are within 4 blocks of each other. Good retail area. A good amount of walk traffic, shops, stores, restaurants, college about 1 mile away, etc...
1st shop is a local shop (no name coffee shop). Not knowing anything about the advertising & such...the coffee was drinkable. The pastries were better than in most coffee shops/chains. The ambiance is ok. I would improve on it. But, it's ok. The place also sells sandwiches, soups, & the sign says that the roaster is Green Mountain. THE PLACE IS EMPTY...
Meanwhile, the 2nd shop: Coffee is awful, undrinkable. Pastries look pathetic. The place is hoping, a big line, FULL OF PEOPLE. Ohhh, 1 thing about this 2nd place. It is a Starbucks.
WHY??? I do not know anything about the 1st shop: their advertising, execution plan, etc... but, I have my suspicions:
Lost his focus or never found its "customer": Are you a coffee shop or a just another sandwich place that sells coffee? People do not see it as a Coffee shop. Did not find/define its customer...
Ambiance: not really a coffee atmosphere. No couches, no nice tables to relax & read, etc...
Hard to see sign in the front.
P.S.: ...or, it is useless/fruitless to fight Starbucks (if 1 opens next to you)? Even if a place has better coffee/pastries/ambiance than Starbucks. Will people go for the "name"?
onocoffee Senior Member Joined: 5 Sep 2002 Posts: 730 Location: Towson, Maryland Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: La Marzocco Linea 2AV, 3AV &... Grinder: 4 Mazzer Major Autos, Compak... Vac Pot: That crazy Bodum eSantos Drip: Bunn CWT Twin, Bunn Water... Roaster: Petroncini The Crumb
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003, 7:55am Subject: Re: Does any one out there (in America) really care the coffee they drink???
If I might add my two bits:
I don't think it's necessarily useless to "fight" Starbucks. No doubt SB is a big shark and practices predatory tactics against established indies in new markets but SB has been beneficial to the independent operator in a number of ways (CG-ers please, no stoning for that statement!).
SB has done an amazing job of increasing the value of espresso drinks. Today, the average SB consumer thinks nothing of spending $4 on a drink. Now that's bang for your buck SB has also increased general consumer awareness of coffee and brought the coffeehouse out of the artsy bohemia and into the mainstream. It's now hip and trendy to sip on your latte, hop into your H2 and pick up the kids from soccer - and you paid $4 for it.
Battling SB in your area demands that your game as a business owner be very tight. I read a recent article (in the Wall Street Journal, I think) that discussed the SB v. Indie phenomena and it seems that SB has only boosted the strength of the indies. The increased consumer awareness about coffee has helped fuel their desire to find the better quality that the indie provides - not to mention an atmosphere that corporate SB is unable to match.
When it comes to your example, like you said the 1st shop's coffee was "drinkable" not great, nothing to get excited about and their atmosphere wasn't really that interesting either. What gives SB it's greatest leverage is it's recognizability. Everyone here knows that SB does not make an incredible espresso drink. It makes a passable one, but a passable one that you know you will receive rather consistently no matter where in the world you go for SB. Most of the time, the consumer isn't necessarily looking for the best coffee, rather, he is looking for one that isn't horrible. He's looking to place a safe bet and SB is that bet. He knows that it's not the best, that it's passable - he knows what to expect.
And I think that is what the indie really has to battle. How to allay the consumer's fears of venturing into the unknown. Into trying something new while they battle their fears of buying something outright bad. I think it's the saavy indie who takes the time to create an environment conducive to their goals and provides a superior quality beverage.
The same article about SB v. Indies stated that the number of indie coffeeshops has increased dramatically to some figure like 15,000 shops. SB forced many of the old time shops still in business today to change - to do some redecoration, refurbishment, install newer equipment, pay closer attention to drink quality. All of which only reinforces the strength of the specialty coffee industry.
Now, by no means am I trying to be an expert. These are all things I've read or were related to me in some way or another. Just some thoughts to consider.
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003, 12:59pm Subject: Re: Does any one out there (in America) really care the coffee they drink???
Good points indeed.
What surprises me...well, it does not really surprise me. Is that all of the small shops that I visited also make undrinkable coffee. Have no idea how to make a good cup of coffee or tea (for that matter). So, from an average person's point of view, "...why not just go to Starbucks." Which brings us to the point that to find someone who actually make good coffee outside of your house is IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Why so many of the small owners will not take the time to learn the skill. I will never know...
onocoffee Senior Member Joined: 5 Sep 2002 Posts: 730 Location: Towson, Maryland Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: La Marzocco Linea 2AV, 3AV &... Grinder: 4 Mazzer Major Autos, Compak... Vac Pot: That crazy Bodum eSantos Drip: Bunn CWT Twin, Bunn Water... Roaster: Petroncini The Crumb
Posted Wed Oct 15, 2003, 8:14pm Subject: Re: Does any one out there (in America) really care the coffee they drink???
Well, I don't know if you might have been following my Baltimore coffee adventures in the US East Forum but I certainly will not disagree with you that there is a plethora of disappointing coffee out there.
I can only surmise that this is because of the relative immaturity of the US Coffee Market. Go to Seattle and Portland and there's an incredible world of difference at places like Hines, Zoka, Caffe D'Arte, Ladro, Vivace, Lighthouse and others. But these are the same people who have been guiding specialty coffee for the past 20 years. I would guess that a lot of the barista operating machines across America haven't been around for 20 years!
Also, most of the people working in the coffee industry probably haven't had serious exposure to serious coffee. Without a basis for comparison and a standard to live up to, it's the chaos we see today. Part of the problem is that the consumer isn't demanding a better quality espresso drink but how can they when they've probably never had a truly great espresso themselves? It's a chicken and the egg kind of quandry and I don't know if there's an easy answer.
One path I would like to see is the owner/operators themselves tasking themselves with making the best coffee in their cities. It's wholly impractical to expect the consumers to go and learn about great coffee but it's not unreasonable to expect the owner/operator to educate themselves about great coffee. Attending seminars, trade shows, paid training sessions, personal sampling and visits to the great coffeehouses of North America should be de rigeur for the serious operator. Then a serious commitment needs to be made to quality and staff training so that each person can make a truly great drink. At Stumptown in Portland everyone seemed to know how to make great drinks. Ditto for Hines. This is the commitment the operators need to make.
Once that happens and people really start to sample great coffee there is no turning back and that's when the indies will really start to smash into SB's business. Until then, I think the overall success of the indies is because there's so much demand for coffeehouses and since people don't know the difference, the quality of the cup makes little difference.
koffeekev Senior Member Joined: 21 Jul 2002 Posts: 693 Location: Connecticut Expertise: Professional
Posted Fri Oct 17, 2003, 2:10pm Subject: Re: Does any one out there (in America) really care the coffee they drink???
Here is my take on the question. The words that jump out at me are "Green Mountain Coffee Roasters". Living in the Northeast you see GMCR just about everywhere. Most of the places are not related to upscale coffee houses and while I think 10 years ago they were on to something new, great and special they saturated the branded market with signs and banners. The quality of coffee they use is good but most of the blends tend to be light to medium bodied, not what I would consider cafe blends. Add every single Mobil gas staion from Maine to Florida (exagerated) cross-marrying flavors and blends into dirty air pots and you can bet that I will search out a Starbucks first. The shop owner in this scenario would probably do better if she/he chose to private label a fuller bodied blend or two from a local micro-roaster.
Disclaimer---I have no issue with GMCR as a business. They are upstanding individuals with top notch practices. I just don't think branding should be applied everywhere. Kevin
P.S. Onocoffee. I have read several articles to back your claim that Starbucks locations help boost local coffee economies.
markm3 Senior Member Joined: 23 Dec 2001 Posts: 80 Location: Kpt,TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Reneka Single (Bizz) Solis... Grinder: La Pavoni & Grindmaster Vac Pot: Bodum Drip: Fetco Extractor,Chemex,... Roaster: None
Posted Sun Oct 19, 2003, 4:40pm Subject: Re: Does any one out there (in America) really care the coffee they drink???
coffee_wine_ismylife Said:
Good points indeed.
What surprises me...well, it does not really surprise me. Is that all of the small shops that I visited also make undrinkable coffee. Have no idea how to make a good cup of coffee or tea (for that matter). So, from an average person's point of view, "...why not just go to Starbucks." Which brings us to the point that to find someone who actually make good coffee outside of your house is IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Why so many of the small owners will not take the time to learn the skill. I will never know...
First of all, most shops do not want to use the proper amount of Coffee, they try to skimp to save on food costs. Most shop owners have no real passion for what they are doing, its all about money. I have even had shop owners make comments like "espresso tastes like sh*t, how could I make it any better" while asking 2.30 for a double.
The Coffee Shop in the nearest town, does onsite roasting and has a great atmosphere on the weekends (open mic etc) a Starbucks opened up in the same town a few weeks ago. So how does this indepedent shop compete? He raises his double from $1.70 to 2.00. The double I had last night was one of the Worst I've had anywhere,it was pulled by the owner into a cold cup. Hell even one of the Starbucks baristas had enought sense to preheat my cup.
I really doubt if I will ever return,and I hate to stop because I've known the guy that roasts for them, for a few years.
Katonley Senior Member Joined: 17 Oct 2003 Posts: 9 Location: MN Expertise: Just starting
Posted Tue Oct 21, 2003, 3:10pm Subject: Re: Does any one out there (in America) really care the coffee they drink???
coffee_wine_ismylife Said:
Good points indeed.
What surprises me...well, it does not really surprise me. Is that all of the small shops that I visited also make undrinkable coffee. Have no idea how to make a good cup of coffee or tea (for that matter). So, from an average person's point of view, "...why not just go to Starbucks." Which brings us to the point that to find someone who actually make good coffee outside of your house is IMPOSSIBLE!!!
Why so many of the small owners will not take the time to learn the skill. I will never know...
There exists one of these places not two blocks from my home. After that, the nearest coffee house is miles away. Nonetheless, after sampling their brew and atmosphere (or lack thereof), I find myself driving to local chains or SB if I'm after the coffeehouse environment. It's sad that local/independent isn't synonymous with "better," although it certain CAN be the case. There are certainly excellent local coffeehouses in the city I live in, but they can be tough to find.
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