I don't think we think it's the end of the world, but it's still sad. True ingenuity denied to businesses all because someone else has more money. Someone slapping you in the face is not the end of the world either, but you don't have to like it.
ByronA Said:
...and although I really don't like their coffee now, it started me on this journey, and for that, I thank them.
Now that remark speaks volumes :-) I guess you could say that Folgers started me on my coffee experience because it was a step up from Maxwell House. Ah, I'm just being sarcastic. I'm grateful you found something fulfilling and enjoyable, even if it was through Starbucks.
ByronA Said:
They will do the same for many others, who don't take coffee as seriously as we do. And that will be very good for specialty coffees, because as they say in Columbia, once you taste real coffee, you can never go back! ;)
I'm not so sure. So many people don't go beyond Starbucks because it presents itself as the pinnacle of coffee. This is of course a common marketing tactic, convincing you how wonderful your purchase is and you'll of course want to come back and buy again. So the true gormands of coffee are marginalized, and people don't or won't or can't really explore coffee further. How did you move beyond Starbucks? That is probably a story in itself.
ByronA Said:
So, someone made an invention, and now it is in the hands of the evil twin. Someone else will come up with something else that is just as good, if not better!
Ah, but I am almost certain that the Clover design is tightly trussed up with all forms of Intellectual Property (patents, trademarks, and copyrights). So no one can take those design principles and make their own Clover. It truly has to be different, and it is hard to be different and better in this case unless someone comes up with new mechanisms to do the same thing.
I do believe there is some hope in that the feverish coffee competition among the Big Three (McDs, DD, *$) will inspire someone to invent truly innovative and new brewing methods that renders Starbucks "advantage" moot.
jazzkj Senior Member Joined: 17 Sep 2007 Posts: 13 Location: Maine Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: Silvia Grinder: Rocky Drip: French Press
Posted Mon Mar 24, 2008, 2:56pm Subject: Re: Starbucks buys Coffee Equipment Company, makers of the Clover
Thank you for the update, Mark. All of your points are fair.
Shame on Starbucks then. Rather than a rising tide, they're emptying the community pool. I hope the next Clover-type innovation is nearly around the corner.
ByronA Senior Member Joined: 24 Aug 2007 Posts: 372 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Rancilio S24, KitchenAid... Grinder: Compak K5, KitchenAid... Vac Pot: Don't want one Drip: Don't want one Roaster: Will eventually get one
Posted Mon Mar 24, 2008, 3:14pm Subject: Re: Starbucks buys Coffee Equipment Company, makers of the Clover
svyerkgeniiy Said:
I don't think we think it's the end of the world, but it's still sad. True ingenuity denied to businesses all because someone else has more money. Someone slapping you in the face is not the end of the world either, but you don't have to like it.
I would like to apologize for that post. I was tired after a long drive home, so my usual circumspection was at an all time low.
svyerkgeniiy Said:
I'm not so sure. So many people don't go beyond Starbucks because it presents itself as the pinnacle of coffee. This is of course a common marketing tactic, convincing you how wonderful your purchase is and you'll of course want to come back and buy again. So the true gormands of coffee are marginalized, and people don't or won't or can't really explore coffee further. How did you move beyond Starbucks? That is probably a story in itself.
I would say judging by the number of indy coffee shops appearing, that there are many who have already moved past the Starbucks experience. Marketing will only get you so far. I remember how Palmolive advertised it's dish soap as being the gentlest on hands. It is actually the harshest on hands of any dish soap I have ever seen. Yes, some will get taken by marketing hype, but there are many more who will move beyond it. As for me, I had my first espresso in Banff in 1986. Then, in 1996, I started buying them when I was called out in the middle of the night... to wake me up. Then...I started buying them when I couldn't expense them. So, I bought my first machine. Then, I quickly discovered that coffee is really important for espresso, and you won't find anything good at starbucks, second cup, or any other chain that was around back then. The rest is history.
svyerkgeniiy Said:
Ah, but I am almost certain that the Clover design is tightly trussed up with all forms of Intellectual Property (patents, trademarks, and copyrights). So no one can take those design principles and make their own Clover. It truly has to be different, and it is hard to be different and better in this case unless someone comes up with new mechanisms to do the same thing.
I do believe there is some hope in that the feverish coffee competition among the Big Three (McDs, DD, *$) will inspire someone to invent truly innovative and new brewing methods that renders Starbucks "advantage" moot.
Who knows...perhaps the Clover will get sold off when Starbucks goes where many other chains have gone, that couldn't adapt. It seems to me that they are more stuck on brainwashing us than they are in trying to adapt. That worked for a while, but times have changed. If they really want to be around, they will have to offer what the consumer wants. They might...
I still think there are many more opportunities for innovation. The motive is there now, just need the ideas.
MatthewBrinski Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 136 Location: Woodland Park, Colorado Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Mar 24, 2008, 3:52pm Subject: Re: Starbucks buys Coffee Equipment Company, makers of the Clover
MarkPrince Said:
For me, the most disturbing thing is how the people who really built up the Clover, outside of CEC at least, are pretty much screwed over by this deal. If there were any indication that CEC tried to maintain status quo for existing owners and distributors, I'd probably feel a bit more charitable about the deal, but there has been no such indications.
You make it sound like these guys were promoting the Clover out of the goodness of their hearts. They weren't doing it for charity. Clover resellers were in it to make a profit by marketing the brew technology, and some were also attempting to expand their wholesale coffee accounts with introduction of the Clover brewer to potential clients. The problem for them is that they relied solely on the hype of the machine rather than ownership in the company. The company is young, hence volatile. They took a chance. Do we know for sure that they were left high and dry? Did the distributors have contracts in place to protect them, or did they just jump on the wagon without any securities because the hype was getting bigger and badder by the day? Part of me feels for the distributors IF they have been left out in the cold, but this is the way business can work if good agreements aren't in place.
Also, as an aside, some people believed that Clover proponents placed focus on the presence of the machine rather than the coffee itself. This is an unfair generalization toward all Clover resellers and users, but I think there is some truth to it. The response from several resellers has been that the focus is on "by the cup" brewing no matter what the method may be. It will be interesting to see if they will now promote single cup pour over, vac-pot, press, etc. to their future clients and operations. That will be the answer to whether their true goal was to promote quality of the coffee itself or whether the real motivation was to promote new and proprietary technology while marketing it in the name of quality. The latter is no different than what has so many people upset about Starbucks obtaining the Clover brewer and its company.
AndyS Senior Member Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 473 Location: NY
Espresso: Tricked-out Silvia Grinder: Robur, M3, Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: Yama Drip: no, I don't have a Clover... Roaster: PIDed Popper
Posted Mon Mar 24, 2008, 4:27pm Subject: Re: Starbucks buys Coffee Equipment Company, makers of the Clover
mikep Said:
I will be interested to see if the Clover name has enough value to Starbucks for them to keep it. It seems like they might change it to some italian-sounding word like 'vacissimo' (hard 'c' sound).
I can really see this getting the ball rolling on a superior machine if it isn't already. There's almost always some room for improvement in a product, and to buy the company and keep everything to themselves is just further proof of their strategy in dealing with competition, or at least that's my opinion.
Lady_Croft Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Michigan Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Thu Mar 27, 2008, 1:01pm Subject: Re: Starbucks buys Coffee Equipment Company, makers of the Clover
svyerkgeniiy Said:
In other words, their purchase of the CC was to corner the market, not to really help people to appreciate coffee more, nor for Starbucks to learn anything from anybody. They already know all that they want to know.
Starbucks is not inherently evil, but they are focused on profitability above all else. They didn't really focus on changing things recently until they were seeing profitability problems-- but people have been complaining to them and about them ever since they went nationwide. (And now McDonalds coffee is better than Starbucks? Oh, the shame.) The "experience" is their gimmick to higher profitability, so anything that gets in the way of that is a prime target.
When the McDonalds, Dunkin Donuts, Tim Hortons, Second Cups, heck, 7--11s of the world claim 'fresh coffee', Starbucks simply has to show a picture of an airpot and say "You call that fresh?" as a counter, and show they truly are the only big chain that can offer fresh coffee.
That is why they bought the Clover. It's not about quality. It's about marketing.
Yep, exactly, and that is why this whole thing makes me so sick. Not to mention that Clovernet was, I thought, an AMAZING technology - connecting you to your machine's every function, broken down into charts and graphs right online?? What an incredible idea! And now everyone with a Clover gets screwed. I really also hope someone comes up with something different, yet comparable to the clover. I'm just sad for all those poooor little Clover machines that will be stuck in Starbucks stores worldwide, crying "pleeease put some good beans in us, we can do so much better!!!!"
It's not the end of the world, and I have a life - but its just so darn fun to express my anger with flare and melodrama!!! :-D
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