JVBorella Senior Member Joined: 29 Oct 2007 Posts: 405 Location: northeastern CT. Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: LaSpaziale S1 Vivaldi 2 Grinder: Macap M4,KA Pro,Zassenhaus... Vac Pot: Press Pots/Finum Filters Drip: Melitta BCM-4c Roaster: Before Long
Posted Tue Jul 1, 2008, 6:47pm Subject: Re: Anybody use the Reynolds Handi-Vac for storing roasted coffee?
cv Said:
I understand the oxidation and aging considerations but I'm not so clear how vacumn packing slows down the outgassing. Seems to me the opposite would be the case, don't freshly roasted beans when vacumn packed in bags actually re-inflate the bag? And wouldn't this happen faster in a vacumn? Unless the outgassing is dependant on oxygen (like combustion which produces CO2) and is slowed by it's reduction in the vacumn packed bag.
Anybody understand the science behind this? And just what does happen to freshly roasted beans when they are vacumn packed? Do they stay vacumn packed or does the bag puff up again? And if so does it happen faster or slower than when in just a normal ziplock with a bit of air left in? Who's made that observation?
I never vacuum bag my roasted coffee until it is 3 days past roast so I don't have a problem with the bags inflating in the freezer. Either the majority of the outgassing is done by then or the storage at 0*F stops it but inflated bags have not been an issue for me.
Posted Wed Jul 2, 2008, 4:31pm Subject: Re: Anybody use the Reynolds Handi-Vac for storing roasted coffee?
christiang Said:
Hmmm. I hadn't thought about the idea of a vacuum accelerating the extraction of gasses from the beans. Is this why a lot of roasters flush their containers with inert gasses? It keeps the air pressure up, keeping the CO2 in the bean, but removes the oxygen.
My understanding is that those roasters who pack in inert gases also pack in a bag with a one way valve that would let out excess CO2 but not allow oxygen in. I don't think the air pressure in the bag gets that high because the valve lets it off, but it's main purpose is to exclude oxygen and keep the flavors fresh. Not sure if the lack of oxygen slows the CO2 release or not.
paslug Said:
Yes indeed, the beans keep gassing in a vacuum. I vacuum pack in bags and in jars both, still trying to decide which if either is better. after about a day, there is enough pressure in the jar to hiss when you loosen the lid, and the bag has inflated. I keep re-vacuuming until no more gas is released. Usually at least 3 or 4 days.
I still suspect that vacumn packing by itself would actually increase CO2 release. I know that 49th Parallel packs in nitrogen (not vacumn) so perhaps they have a comment about how the nitrogen affects the out gassing (or not). And why they think this is better than vacumn packing.
JVBorella Said:
I never vacuum bag my roasted coffee until it is 3 days past roast so I don't have a problem with the bags inflating in the freezer. Either the majority of the outgassing is done by then or the storage at 0*F stops it but inflated bags have not been an issue for me.
So these experiences would indicate that vacumn packing immediately after roasting doesn't stop the CO2 release (doesn't prove that it couldn't slow it down or accelerate it a bit though) but that if you wait a few days that most of the CO2 release seems to have occured and then when you vacumn pack you don't get significant reinflation at that point. So again it's hard to know if that is just because most of the CO2 has already been released or whether at this point reduction of oxygen arrests it or maybe the freezing. Again I would think that somebody at one of the bigger roasting companies has looked into this and could clear up a lot of these questions.
If we assume that vacumn packing actually increases CO2 release (not proven yet) and if reducing oxygen actually slows it down or at least retains more flavor, then it's a question of which has more of an effect on keeping the coffee fresher longer. Packing in inert gases under minimal pressure seems to address both of these possibilities which seems to be what 49th Parallel is doing. (Again I am trying to bait them into making a comment on this.)
christiang Senior Member Joined: 14 Dec 2007 Posts: 30 Location: Berkeley Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Kitchenaid Proline Drip: Ceramic Cone and Bodum...
Posted Mon Jul 14, 2008, 10:21am Subject: Re: Anybody use the Reynolds Handi-Vac for storing roasted coffee?
Just thought I'd add another data point. I vacuumed a small portion of Ritual Coffee Faezenda Do Serrado a few days (I think it was four) after the roast date with my Reynolds and froze it. I just opened it up a few days ago after 3 months. Right after opening, it was still pretty spectacular - as good as I remember it being. It definitely aged much more quickly though, even with re-vacuuming it right after I took out that first portion.
This is pretty consistent with everything I've read about freezing roasted coffee. Most people recommend only packaging it up in single use portions. But it's nice to know that the reynolds vacuum pump can stand up to this kind of test.
It still doesn't answer the questions you were trying to ask, Conrad.
Anyone out there with some advice? Anyone? Bueller?
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