Posted Wed Apr 25, 2012, 11:27am Subject: VST strength of some *$s drinks
So, been playing with the VST. Latest checks were very interesting.
I was in a hurry away from home, so ordered an "Americano" because all they had brewed up was some ungodly dark roast (like Verona or something like that). What I received is pretty darn weak approximation of a coffee. It came in a 12oz "tall", and I asked to find out that a Tall Cafe Americano contains TWO WHOLE SHOTS of espresso.
A few days later, I stopped by and grabbed a couple of separate shots of espresso, a tall Americano, and some of the brewed Pike Place.
Pike Place was 1.45% TDS. Surprisingly strong.
The shots of espresso were both right around 30g, and both 5.1-5.3% strength (used some of the VST filters) with a fair amount of silt or micro mud.
The surprising thing was the CRAPPY WEAK Americano - averaging right around 0.80-0.83% strength - no WONDER it was so damned weak. The coffee amount in the Americano was supposedly two shots of espresso, and the total beverage was around 335g.
I've taken this data and found that a doppio is about $1.75 - get it in a short cup and have them top it off with water. BINGO - That beverage averages around 1.2-1.3% strength, and surprisingly tastes pretty good, even if you are only getting around 230g of it.
If you're in a pinch, have to get your caffeine fix at *$s, and want a bit more, then order a Grande Americano, but have them put it into a Tall cup topped off with water. If you want it a bit stronger, ask for room for cream. You'll end up getting an Americano at a normal strength. (don't order a Tall Americano and add a shot - for some reason that's more expensive).
On average, this means that each shot of espresso at my local Starbucks is around 5% strength, or 1.5g of TDS.
To get the beverages at the normal coffee strength 1.25%: Short (8oz) or 240ml needs two 30g shots Tall (12oz) or ~360ml needs three 30g shots Grande (16oz) or ~480ml needs four 30g shots Venti (20oz) or ~600ml needs FIVE 30g shots.
If you're not into EVEAH getting Starbucks, pass on the thread... move along... nothing to see here. :D
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri Apr 27, 2012, 9:46pm Subject: Re: VST strength of some *$s drinks
But aren't these ratios true of any espresso drink? I've always found it to be the case, at least, that 1 shot of espresso can generally take 3oz of milk (and not much more) and still stand out. That is to say, I consider the standard double-tall latte fairly weak... is this not the normal feeling among coffee nerds (geeks)?
Posted Sat Apr 28, 2012, 5:33am Subject: Re: VST strength of some *$s drinks
I don't know why, but their americanos were always weak. I used to get them regularly. I haven't had one in a long time.
I would usually order a triple (or quad!) tall americano, but I discovered they charge less for a grande (or venti!) americano "in a tall cup". The less intelligent baristas would argue that it won't fit, but I'd tell them how to do their jobs and they'd have that lightbulb moment (just add less water) and then they'd look at me like I was crazy. Or awesome.
Posted Sat Apr 28, 2012, 3:26pm Subject: Re: VST strength of some *$s drinks
StereoHeathen Said:
But aren't these ratios true of any espresso drink? I've always found it to be the case, at least, that 1 shot of espresso can generally take 3oz of milk (and not much more) and still stand out. That is to say, I consider the standard double-tall latte fairly weak... is this not the normal feeling among coffee nerds (geeks)?
Starbucks recipe trends toward the weak side, because their cups are larger than the older "cup", yet the espresso is still about 1oz/shot.
Several years ago, I asked about cappuccino while in Lancia, Italy - the owner of the restaurant sat down with us and what stuck in my head was 1/3-1/3-1/3 (I still remember... "una teerd, una-teerd, una-teerd, you-ah have-a tha espresso with the latte caldo with the... you call it the 'foam', ha?"). It's approximate, but in a 6oz cup, about 2oz (2 shots) for 2oz steamed milk and the froth fills the rest of the cup - but like any recipe it varies.
BTW - he wouldn't make us any, only espresso. "ah, its-ah only for mattina - the morning!" LOL
That sure aint what Starbucks serves if you ask for one. The smallest cup is the short at 8oz. They put 1 oz shot of espresso in a short cap. 1 oz doesn't support much more than a couple oz of steamed milk before it becomes more of a latte.
But order a tall latte - you get... 1 shot of espresso and the other 10ish oz are steamed milk. bleah.
The *$s latte and cappuccino get:
Short (8oz) 1 shot Tall (12oz) 1 shot Grande (16oz) 2 shots Venti (20oz) 3 shots.
Americanos get one more shot than the latte and cap.
In a decent cafe, tho, you'll get a better ratio of espresso to milk. I'm sure there's some barista guideline on exactly what the true cappuccino and latte should be.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sun Apr 29, 2012, 1:02pm Subject: Re: VST strength of some *$s drinks
And, ain't email wonderful?
I've been somewhat re-directed - there isn't a "firm" definition of cappuccino, turns out.
Some places call it a third each - but that's to create a double cappuccino in a 6 oz cup. The actual ratio may vary considerably, more noteably with a ~1oz shot of espresso in a 5-6 oz cup, combined with between 2-3 oz of steamed milk, with the froth taking up the rest of the volume.
The application supposedly comes from the description, where the milk and foam should be 1:1 and make up the balance of the volume not occupied by the espresso - or 1oz espresso in a 5oz cup, with 2oz milk and the rest of the volume foam.
This description doesn't mesh with my memory of the description of a cappuccino, but like here I suppose there's plenty of variation on the theme.
<shrug>
One thing's for sure, Starbucks' watered down interpretation in 8oz cups is pretty darn weak.
According to this link, forwarded by another emailer - Click Here (www.guardian.co.uk) supposedly according to the Istituto Nazionale Espresso Italiano:
A Cappuccino is 150ml, consisting of: 125ml milk, no warmer than 3-5C, containing a minimum of 3.2% protein and 3.5% fat
25ml shot of hot espresso coffee
Add coffee to a 150-160ml capacity ceramic cup
Froth milk with steam to a temperature of 55C, and add to cup
Add sugar and stir gently.
Even at that semi-official Italian ratio, a *$s recipe for Cappuccino of 30g:200g is still quite milky.
I too, tho, still find a double tall latte overly weak - if/when I do feel like a latte, I get a double short latte.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sun Apr 29, 2012, 6:33pm Subject: Re: VST strength of some *$s drinks
Oops, just read your later post. Did not realize they actually use a double for the Americano.
So a Tall Americano has two shots ? Last time I asked about shots in a Tall Latte, they said it was only a single. Maybe the Americano really only had a single ? That was an advantage before the Super Autos. They pulled doubles by default and you could get the extra shot free if no one else was waiting.
Netphilosopher Said:
So, been playing with the VST. Latest checks were very interesting.
I was in a hurry away from home, so ordered an "Americano" because all they had brewed up was some ungodly dark roast (like Verona or something like that). What I received is pretty darn weak approximation of a coffee. It came in a 12oz "tall", and I asked to find out that a Tall Cafe Americano contains TWO WHOLE SHOTS of espresso.
A few days later, I stopped by and grabbed a couple of separate shots of espresso, a tall Americano, and some of the brewed Pike Place.
Pike Place was 1.45% TDS. Surprisingly strong.
The shots of espresso were both right around 30g, and both 5.1-5.3% strength (used some of the VST filters) with a fair amount of silt or micro mud.
The surprising thing was the CRAPPY WEAK Americano - averaging right around 0.80-0.83% strength - no WONDER it was so damned weak. The coffee amount in the Americano was supposedly two shots of espresso, and the total beverage was around 335g.
I've taken this data and found that a doppio is about $1.75 - get it in a short cup and have them top it off with water. BINGO - That beverage averages around 1.2-1.3% strength, and surprisingly tastes pretty good, even if you are only getting around 230g of it.
If you're in a pinch, have to get your caffeine fix at *$s, and want a bit more, then order a Grande Americano, but have them put it into a Tall cup topped off with water. If you want it a bit stronger, ask for room for cream. You'll end up getting an Americano at a normal strength. (don't order a Tall Americano and add a shot - for some reason that's more expensive).
On average, this means that each shot of espresso at my local Starbucks is around 5% strength, or 1.5g of TDS.
To get the beverages at the normal coffee strength 1.25%: Short (8oz) or 240ml needs two 30g shots Tall (12oz) or ~360ml needs three 30g shots Grande (16oz) or ~480ml needs four 30g shots Venti (20oz) or ~600ml needs FIVE 30g shots.
If you're not into EVEAH getting Starbucks, pass on the thread... move along... nothing to see here. :D
Posted Mon Apr 30, 2012, 3:57am Subject: Re: VST strength of some *$s drinks
markm3 Said:
Oops, just read your later post. Did not realize they actually use a double for the Americano.
So a Tall Americano has two shots ? Last time I asked about shots in a Tall Latte, they said it was only a single. Maybe the Americano really only had a single ? That was an advantage before the Super Autos. They pulled doubles by default and you could get the extra shot free if no one else was waiting.
Yeah, the Americano has one more shot than a same-sized cap or latte.
since I have an early conference call this morning and I forgot to do my concentrated coffee last night, i ended up stopping by *$s this morning. The tall Americano is $1.95 now (yikes!) and the Grande is $2.55 - but the extra shot is $0.75.
It's actually pretty good. I did confirm that the short and tall have the same shot count for the lattes, and they go up by 1 each size for the espresso drinks.
Short: Americano: 1 shot, Latte/Cappuccino 1 shot. Tall: Americano 2 shot, latte/Cappuccino 1 shot Grande: Americano 3 shot, Latte/Cappuccino 2 shots Venti: Americano 4 shot, Latte/Cappuccino 3(?) shots.
This isn't completely consistent with the nutritional chart they have. Each shot of espresso is considered 75mg of caffeine:
Short: Americano: 75mg, Latte/Cappuccino 75mg Tall: Americano 150mg, latte/Cappuccino 75mg Grande: Americano 225mg, Latte/Cappuccino 150mg Venti: Americano 300mg, Latte/Cappuccino 150mg (only 2 shots?)
I then asked this morning about the difference between a cappuccino and a latte - the PBTC said the difference was the amount of foam. Just a dollop on a latte, the rest is steamed milk with the aforementioned espresso amounts. "Quite a bit" of foam on the Cappuccino.
I also asked about the drinks that take 3 shots, PBTC said they used to sometimes just give the customer the shot, the machine is most consistent with pulling doubles. According to policy, this is now verboten (or probably proibito or vietato if we're sticking with the Italian theme). They are instructed that if a customer does not buy the odd shot, they toss it out. I said that seems like a waste, but PBTC said that if everyone thought they could get a free shot every time...
...true. What they should do is price accordingly - if your drink consists of something with uneven shots, then charge half price $0.30 for the 2nd shot that's going to be thrown away anyways - and UPSELL at the register.
Other shops do that (if they pull doubles for consistency, like the couple of independent shops around Ann Arbor).
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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