Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 10:32am Subject: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
I'll appologize in advance, because I'm sure some of these ??? have already been answered, but I'm having trouble finding the answers.
Since I bought my espresso machine, I've been spending more on coffee beans than I ever spent on buying espresso from a cafe. Granted, I'm drinking more. It costs me roughly $15 a lb for roasted beans I pick up locally. By looking at sweet marias, it seems I could cut that up to a third by roasting my own. BUT, how much mass is lost from the green beans to the roasted beans? In rough terms that is. If half of the beans go away from steam and smoke and chaff, it doesn't seem overly economical.
Second question is really, how practical is it? Looks like the whole process goes pretty fast which is good. I'm going through ~2lbs a week BTW. I suppose the practicality question is multiple questions. That is, how forgiving is roasting, how repeatable is it, how long can I keep unroasted beans before they go bad, etc?
Lastly, I have the means and materials to make my own roaster at virtually no cost, but before I whip one together, I'm a little confused about the process. The basics that I picked up are the beans are roasted at 500degs, they crack, and then continue roasting until they're the desired color. Do the beans need to be constantly moving through the entire process? Do the beans need to be enclosed? From what I've picked up is that yes is the answer to both questions, but I'm just not sure. My original thought on a roaster is a steel box, with a very thick and heavy steel base (for even heat distribution) that would be heated with a propane flame. The beans would be in a perforated stainless cylinder (I actually perforate metal for a living) that would rotate to evenly roast the beans. Sound good or ???
CoffeeRoastersClub Senior Member Joined: 6 Jul 2005 Posts: 2,144 Location: Vernon Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Vintage La Pavoni Lever... Grinder: KitchenAid Pro Line Burr... Vac Pot: Vintage Silex Drip: Aeropress, French Press Roaster: "EL SUPREMO" w/QuikSPIN-CRC...
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 11:04am Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
Joel_B Said:
I'll appologize in advance, because I'm sure some of these ??? have already been answered, but I'm having trouble finding the answers.
Roast a pound of green and after roasting it will weigh about 12 oz. Also the volume will increase due to bean expansion.
I get bolivian organic free trade for about $3/pound, right from the farmer. Plus I enjoy roasting as a hobby.
All in all, the benefits far outweigh any negatives (and the only negatives I have really encountered is the extra money I spend on neat coffee things.)
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 11:12am Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
As far as roasting process, there are many ways to skin that cat. Far be it for any of us here to criticize you for reinventing the wheel. It sounds like you are close to just creating the drum - bbq method. Why not just do that since you are so close. Another option is the Ronco Rotisserie with a drum.
Now as far as results I do have some experience here so I can chime in. I have used many different roasters over the years and my favorite methods by far are the SC/TO and the BBQ drum methods. For my tastes only the BBQ drum and lots of experience and trial and error and throwing out of beans and unfortunate blends and more experience lead to satisfactory, reliable, repeatable results suitable for espresso. The SC/TO comes close.
Poppers I have found just do not infuse the roast with the type of body that espresso demands. I'm sure some heavy modded variac'ed users would disagree but I've even tried those and stand by my argument. I was actually surprised when I switched to BBQ drum after 2 years of SC/TO roasting at how much body and mouthfeel came along with the drum. Stunned is more accurate. Even my wife, who has fantastic taste when picking a spouse, but is kind of a tin palate when it comes to coffee immediately sensed the difference.
On to the crux of your post. Is it worth it? meh. Yes and no. First off, if you are ordering from the likes of Intelligentsia, et al then it will be a while before you can match their results. I have been roasting for 3+ years and feel like I have just achieved that level of quality (on a good day.)
I absolutely spend more on green beans then I ever spent on roasted coffee. By far. I bet you would too. Before I went commercial I built up to the point where I was roasting ridiculous amounts each week. Something like 10 - 12 lbs. Seriously. But even before it got ridiculous I was spending somewhere in the range of $7/lb for greens plus electricity for roasting (then propane) plus storage devices, plus upkeep for the roasters. Plus upgrades for the roasters. etc. etc. etc. It always amazes me how many etceteras there are. The end result is that you do not roast your own to save money.
Final point. To me roasting for espresso is like sex for the over 40 year old. When it is done well it is amazing, when done poorly you wish you had just gone ahead and spent the extra money.
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 11:16am Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
Joel_B Said:
It costs me roughly $15 a lb for roasted beans I pick up locally. By looking at sweet marias, it seems I could cut that up to a third by roasting my own. BUT, how much mass is lost from the green beans to the roasted beans? In rough terms that is. If half of the beans go away from steam and smoke and chaff, it doesn't seem overly economical.
Generally coffee loses 15% to 20% weight during the roasting process.
Joel_B Said:
Looks like the whole process goes pretty fast which is good. I'm going through ~2lbs a week BTW. I suppose the practicality question is multiple questions. That is, how forgiving is roasting, how repeatable is it, how long can I keep unroasted beans before they go bad, etc?
I usually go through 2-3 pounds per week (sometimes much more - when I roast gifts), and it takes me about 1-1/2 hours to roast that on a Saturday afternoon. Green coffee keeps for several months, some have said up to 2 years. I try to sue mine within 6 months of purchase.
When I started, it took a while before my roasts got more consistent. Now there is so much support that it seems like it would be easier to get there quicker, but I must say that I was very happy with my results even when my roasts weren't consistent at all. I believe that roasting coffee deepens your understanding of the bean and can really help improve your coffee and espresso making as well. To me it all goes together. :-)
And even now, after a few years of roasting I find that my blending goes through swings with bean availability. Every year's new crops bring new challenges and new variations. I think it's a very entertaining and rewarding hobby.....
Joel_B Said:
Do the beans need to be constantly moving through the entire process?
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 11:40am Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
Thanks for the answers. In good time too :) Yeah, a BBQ drum is basically what I'm thinking, so I might fab that up that could work with my BBQ. I guess I've got a couple more questions.
I have a lot on my plate right now, so I'm not sure if I'm ready to invest hours right now if that's what it takes. So how steep is the learning curve? Is it reasonable to get acceptable results after a few trial and error sessions, say within the 5th try, or are we talking 6 mos of hard thankless nights and weekends to get it right? Although consistancy is good, drinkability is more important to me. So, when I say how much time is reasonable, I'm asking to get good solid coffee, but not necessarily to an expert. If that makes sense.
Also, how about tempurature. Is 500deg critical or can I still roast at 250, but it'll just take longer? Likewise, will 600deg work if I spin the drum faster?
jacbri Senior Member Joined: 18 Aug 2007 Posts: 171 Location: Saint Paul Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio S26 Grinder: Astoria Super Jolly Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 11:46am Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
DonTman, would you say that to make thick creamy shots the bean freshness is the biggest factor?
I have now gone through over 10 lbs of roasted coffee of different sorts, none had a roast date on them, two 3 lb bags were from costco- one a kirkland starbucks brand, the other San Fransicso Bay organic blend, the other 2 were from a commercial 5lb bag from a local distributer.
I remember going to peets coffee and buying a ridiculously overpriced bag of espresso blend, the first few days the shots were really thick anc creamy, after that crap.... probably went stale on me. And with every large bag I buy it seems the shots are watery and blond within 13 seconds!
Anyhow I am interested in roasting my own just because of wasting tons of coffee. Currently I am storing my beans in wine bottles with a vacuum stopper.
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 11:47am Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
Jon,
Thanks for posting that "Hot rod roasters" link. I love that site.
Everytime I see it I want to go outside and roast.
Oh yeah, Audiman,
In my effort to portray the reasonable side in your considerations of home-roasting I forgot to mention how much of a home-roast nut I am. I love home-roasting. It is an awesome hobby and just great fun. I roasted somewhere in the neighborhood of 60 lbs last week and enjoyed every minute of it except when I laid the hot spit across my bare arm. Major brand there.
Just don't expect to save much money by switching to home roast.
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 11:52am Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
Audiman,
Go for it, home roasting is extremely gratifying. I'm pretty sure that you'll throughly enjoy your first batch. What you lack in professional expertise, will be balanced by the fact that you will have fresh and peaking beans at your disposal.
From my limited understanding you don't want to go beyond or even into the 500f temp range.
Check out Sweet Marias for info, even if you don't source your beans from them.
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 12:12pm Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
Joel_B Said:
Thanks for the answers. In good time too :) Yeah, a BBQ drum is basically what I'm thinking, so I might fab that up that could work with my BBQ. I guess I've got a couple more questions.
I have a lot on my plate right now, so I'm not sure if I'm ready to invest hours right now if that's what it takes. So how steep is the learning curve? Is it reasonable to get acceptable results after a few trial and error sessions, say within the 5th try, or are we talking 6 mos of hard thankless nights and weekends to get it right? Although consistancy is good, drinkability is more important to me. So, when I say how much time is reasonable, I'm asking to get good solid coffee, but not necessarily to an expert. If that makes sense.
Also, how about tempurature. Is 500deg critical or can I still roast at 250, but it'll just take longer? Likewise, will 600deg work if I spin the drum faster?
The thing with a drum is not so much the length of the learning curve but the amount of beans in the learning curve. In learning the nuances of my drum I threw out at least 10 lbs of greens, plus ended up with another 10 that were not sell-able. This surprised me. Also when I tried to do smaller roasts just to get the hang it behaved totally differently from a full load so the lesson was worthless.
The thing is I brought a lot of experience from other roasting methods so I was able to minimize the learning curve. Personally I would recommend learning with HG/DB or pan or whirly pop (my first) and then growing from there. Smaller loads, easier process less loss shallower learning curve. My first roast with the Whirly was drinkable, the second was excellent, by the third I actually knew what was going on inside the popper.
jacbri Said:
DonTman, would you say that to make thick creamy shots the bean freshness is the biggest factor?
I have now gone through over 10 lbs of roasted coffee of different sorts, none had a roast date on them, two 3 lb bags were from costco- one a kirkland starbucks brand, the other San Fransicso Bay organic blend, the other 2 were from a commercial 5lb bag from a local distributer.
I remember going to peets coffee and buying a ridiculously overpriced bag of espresso blend, the first few days the shots were really thick anc creamy, after that crap.... probably went stale on me. And with every large bag I buy it seems the shots are watery and blond within 13 seconds!
Anyhow I am interested in roasting my own just because of wasting tons of coffee. Currently I am storing my beans in wine bottles with a vacuum stopper.
I am answering this question because you ask me specifically but Jon R is the frickin king of the thick creamy shot. I know my way around a roaster and blends for espresso but Jon is an artiste on the espresso machine.
Short answer based on what you have been buying is Yes. I believe that bean freshness is the key factor to getting consistent desirable results. Storage method has only a small amount to do with keeping coffee fresh. At this point I just keep very close track of roast date and throw out anything older than 3 weeks.
I can't be sure but there is a chance you have not purchased anything younger than three weeks old.
Long answer once you know you have fresh coffee is the other 3 "M"s, Machine, Grinder, and technique. Oh yeah, let's not forget the blend itself. Certain varieties of beans produce different characteristics in the cup.
Posted Sun Nov 4, 2007, 12:14pm Subject: Re: Thinking about roasting my own but have some ???
Don, I appreciate the disclaimer about your nutty obsession. I cringed a bit when you wrote that your arm got "roasted". I've had some pretty good burns before and they HURT!!!
So, the long and short of it, roasting is about the hobby I guess. Just wanted to beat the system a little and not spend $30 a week on beans. I still think I'll give it a try; it does sound fun. I can parallel it to brewing beer, it's not cheaper than buying a 6'er, it's the joy that you made it and trying to get different results. At least roasting won't take me a whole afternoon to brew and a month of waiting to see what it tastes like.
I've looked at sweet marias for advice, I think I'll go back and dig a little deeper.
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