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Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

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efilive
Senior Member

Joined: 28 Dec 2007
Posts: 153
Location: los angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus II
Grinder: Macap M4D/Rocky Doserless
Drip: capresso aroma...
Roaster: Behmor 1600

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 12:07am Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

I'm confused as heck. I thought I posted a message here earlier and remember it showing up on the second page and now it's nowhere to be found. Id suggest trying the following 3 tests? P4 1/4 A, Should hit first bump at 5:57 showing P4 1/4 A time reduced to 4:20, should hit first bump at 3:02 showing P4 1/4 A time extended to 11:30, should hit first bump at 8:03 showing S4 1/4 A time reduced to 4:20 pre Start and extended to 11:30 as soon as Start is pressed, should hit first bump at 3:02 showing I'd also suggest roasting with the door open and no drum or chaff tray and maybe a fan blowing at the roaster to keep it cool. That way you take the thermostat completely out of the equation and are only measuring the cycle times of the current leg of the roast. One of the problems is we're trying to measure the cycle times of something that has controls we're unaware of. We have the manual which shows profiles and indicates how the work which I followed as I understood them, but the manual doesn't cover what other things might effect the actual profile of a given roast. Those of us who had the slow roasters know that a seemingly insignificant mechanical change can have a significant effect on how roasts progress so if you really want to know it's likely important to try and isolate one item at a time as you measure. We know there are at least 2 places temperature is measured and that the afterburner has some effect on the roast, but we've not been told what those do so it's probably important to try and take them out of the equation if you want meaningful results. Ira

The guy who wrote RoasterThing www.RoasterThing.com

tahoejoe
Senior Member

Joined: 9 Sep 2003
Posts: 423
Location: San Diego/ Incline Village Nv.
Expertise: I live coffee

Grinder: Solis Maestro
Drip: Behmor Brazen Brew System
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Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 2:27am Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

My apologies but I’m in the UK about to meet up for Sunday meetings, so this’ll be rather short Imagine going to Mars and trying to explain the concept of coffee, coffee profiles, heat applications, cooling etc etc. That’s what I stepped into over 4 years ago. Trying to explain the above in the most basic of forms to engineers from a non coffee world. What is presented on the website and elsewhere, are the very charts/ graphics used to illustrate in general terms, the concept of what profiles were. The data was provided in terms of power (to desired temps) relative to time, broken in percentages to total. As with the engineers, the charts/ are intended soley to supply general ideas on the way the design is intended to function. Variables such as available voltage, bean density and other factors will alter an actual chart where thermo-couplers/ thermisters are used. Regarding the elements/ quartz. Inside the quartz are fairly thick coils, which are pulling, being provided full power, but require some time to glow. The reverse is true of power down periods will have lag times. Key thing to remember is the charts are illustrations only.

REMINDER: Never leave the roaster unattended when in use !! And remember to use our Rosetta Stone tip PART V PARAGRAPH 3.. it works !!! www.behmor.com Twitter: www.twitter.com/behmor

doublepedro
Senior Member

Joined: 27 Nov 2009
Posts: 10
Location: Thibodaux
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Expobar Brewtus IIIR,...
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Roaster: Behmor 1600

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 6:58am
Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

tahoejoe Said:

Key thing to remember is the charts are illustrations only.

Posted December 13, 2009 link

The key question is not about the charts, per se, but about what happens when you add/subtract time BEFORE hittinng start versus AFTER hitting start. Can you provide any information about this?

Thanks!

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 2:04pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

doublepedro Said: The key question is not about the charts, per se, but about what happens when you add/subtract time BEFORE hitting start versus AFTER hitting start. Can you provide any information about this? Thanks! Posted December 13, 2009 link I went and read the web site last night and it's pretty clearly described as working like BT shows. It will be interesting to see if the manual actually documents it incorrectly or if the method of measurement being used in these tests is faulty. Ira

The guy who wrote RoasterThing www.RoasterThing.com

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 2:34pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

So I decided to take my own advice. Power drop for 1/4 P2 A should be at 3:24 indicated or 5:06 into the roast All tests done with no drum or chaff tray and the door open. All starting times ae accurate, power drop times are within a few seconds as it's hard to tell the exact second. 1/4 P2 A shortened to 5 minutes with the door open: Power never drops 1/4 P2 A 8:30 indicated: power drops at 3:10 or 5:20 into the roast 1/4 P2 A extended to 10:30: power drops at 5:10 indicated or 5:20 into the roast. Let's try 1/4 P2 C, power should drop at 4:00 minutes indicated according to the manual. 1/4 P2 C 10:00 indicated: power drops at 3:46 indicated or 6:16 into the roast I'm not goind to worry much about the difference between the 5:06 I think it should start and the 5:20 is seems to start at as if the cycle time for the on/off is 15 seconds and it always starts the cycle turned on I'd expect that kind of reading. It would appear there is a good chance doublepedro is correct at least for 1/4 P2 and that the Behmor does not actually workat that setting the way the manual says. I wonder if my tests are invalid, it's a bug in the firmware or a bug in the documentation. Sadly that changes all the rules I thought I was supposed to follow to get P2 working right.

The guy who wrote RoasterThing www.RoasterThing.com

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 4:10pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

So one last test, because someone told me I was all wrong and I really want to see if I'm losing it. Again 1/4 P2 A time reduced to 5:00, press Ttart, time added to 10:30 or 10:21 by the time I pressed "+" enough times. Now according to the rules in the manual the power should drop at an indicated 2:00 and turn back on with 30 seconds left. and the last leg should be 6 minutes long. What really happens is what's described if you were to press 1/4 P2 A Start and then "+" till you have 10:30 on the clock. 10:30 started power drop at 5:10 or 5:20 into the roast or a first leg of 5:20 power back to full at 2:51 or 7:39 into the roast or a second leg of 2:30 and a last leg of 2:51 And, as feared, the profile is exactly the same as every other 1/4 P2 A roast I've tested and nothing I do seems to change it. Ira

The guy who wrote RoasterThing www.RoasterThing.com

farmroast
Senior Member

Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 1,403
Location: Amherst MA.
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Oly:Cremina,Maxi. MCAL...
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Roaster: 1kg. DreamRoast

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 7:34pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

Using a Kill-A-Watt meter set on watts should tell you what's happening and when.

Ed Bourgeois... LMWDP #167 please visit my blog http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/

farmroast
Senior Member

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 7:47pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

tahoejoe Said: Imagine going to Mars and trying to explain the concept of coffee, coffee profiles, heat applications, cooling etc etc. That’s what I stepped into over 4 years ago. Trying to explain the above in the most basic of forms to engineers from a non coffee world. Posted December 13, 2009 link geeez, now we're using engineers from Mars? I wonder if they came up with the saucer design for Illy too! ;-) holiday cheers to all, farm

Ed Bourgeois... LMWDP #167 please visit my blog http://coffee-roasting.blogspot.com/

Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 9:41pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

It's pretty obvious when the element turns on and off as the cycle time is long and it turns from orange to brown in a second or two. Ira

The guy who wrote RoasterThing www.RoasterThing.com

yakster
Senior Member

Joined: 25 Feb 2009
Posts: 826
Location: San Jose, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Peppina / Gaggia Factory...
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Roaster: Behmor

Posted Thu Dec 17, 2009, 12:02am Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles

So, I had a chance to do another roast tonight to do some further testing on this and also to roast some decaf for the in-laws. I had roasted this bean (a full pound of Colombian Royal Select WP Decaf) three weeks ago under similar conditions using a stock 1# P2 B profile with first crack setting in at 14:30 from hitting start, so my goal is to set up a P2 profile with the second leg starting near 14:30. With a stock 1# P2 C profile, the second leg occurs at 12:54, and D is not an option for P2 since the maximum roast time is 22:30, so in order to push the second leg out further, I decided to do a 1:30 pre-roast where I roast the beans on a P1 profile for 1:30 then quickly hit off and then program the Behmor for the roast profile I desire. I don't normally have to add a pre-roast in order to get the second leg (temperature drop) to occur near first crack, but I also don't normally roast a full pound so I have to compensate. In order to test what the Behmor does if I add time before hitting start, I decide to program the Behmor for 1# P2 C ++++ Start after stopping the machine at the completion of the pre-roast. This, in theory according to the manual and BehmorThing extends the roast time and maintains the percentages of time for all legs, so all three legs should be proportionally extended to have the temperature drop occur at 13:30 with the added time instead of occuring at 12:54 and the maximum roast time is extended from 22:00 to 22:30. I ran the test roast as planned, and the temp drop occurred close to 13:00 instead of 13:30, so the ++++ before hitting start only changed the last leg and did not move the 2nd leg or adjust the whole profile with the percentages listed. Because I had to stop the Behmor at 1:30, program the Behmor for the next phase of the roast (1# P2 C ++++ Start) and then tell BehmorThing that I'd ended the pre-roast and started the next step, there was some time lag in there. I was happy to see that the temperature drop occurred right around 1:30 + 13:00 = 14:30 from the start of the pre-roast since first crack started at 1:30 + 12:52 = 14:22, about eight to fifteen seconds before the temp drop. I was able to stretch out the time between first and second crack this way and the roast went as planned. The blip on the manual ET temperature line (in red) was when I accidentally hit the log button twice. So, adding or subtracting time before hitting start only changes the last leg of the roast and does not affect the other legs, at least that's what my 1/4 # and 1 # testing have revealed. Now that I know this, I should be able to avoid some unexpected results, but I may start to rely on pre-roasts more to be able to move the profile (extend the first leg) in smaller increments then just A, B, C, and D will allow. -Chris (Click for larger image)

-Chris LMWDP # 272

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