Fair enough - I find no evidence in reading these posts that publicly, in this forum, online that Joe has been rude to you. What you and he may have working on the side I have no knowledge of.
But reading these threads, I've not seen Joe be rude to anyone.
And sometimes when the language of a persons tends to be rude - I speak rude to them to see if they understand. Several people have tried speaking 'kindly' to you and it has not dented your actions, nor steered you toward being more civil...
Posted Sat Feb 27, 2010, 10:45am Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
ljguitar Said:
And sometimes when the language of a persons tends to be rude - I speak rude to them to see if they understand. Several people have tried speaking 'kindly' to you and it has not dented your actions, nor steered you toward being more civil...
But really, that's the wrong approach. it's the easy one, but the wrong one.
You and a large number of others came into a thread about how the Behmor doesn't work the way we were led to believe and told us that it didn't matter. Some of us expected it to work the way we were led to believe and would like to know why it doesn't.
"I don't use P2 so it doesn't matter" has nothing to do with the question, neither does, "it only cost $299, what do you expect" or an astonishing large number of answers from people who seemed to think buying something and then getting something of lesser value is not a reasonable concern. Joe is not in this for the betterment of the home roasting community, he's in it for the money and maybe the fame, I don't really know. I and many others just want to know why we've not gotten an answer that was first promised on "Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 1:27am"? Lots of people bandy about the wonderfulness of Behmor's tech support as somehow that makes a difference to this thread. You want to contribute, tell me why we're wrong, why I shouldn't expect an answer, why someone shouldn't file a class action suit or why you seem to think mediocrity is OK?
Personally, while I've not been that nice to Joe in this thread, after 10 weeks with no answer I wonder if we've not been a lot nicer than he deserves?
And he had the chance to stop it on Dec 13. If he'd answered the question instead of what he did or even kept his promises this would have been resolved, instead it sits here and festers.
Posted Sat Feb 27, 2010, 12:22pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
I have been hesitant to post on this thread, but I think we need to lock it down for the moment.
First - Joe has been unable to post here for a few weeks due to some strange (and documented) issue. It's not some lame and stupid "no internet" excuse as was suggested.
Second:
efilive Said:
... an answer that was first promised on "Posted Sun Dec 13, 2009, 1:27am"?
No such promise was made on this thread at that time. I didn't review every post, and it does seem that Joe has indicated that he would investigate and respond. However, he did NOT make any such statement in the post Ira referenced (copied below).
Ira, If you want to continue your apparent personal vendetta I'm going to suggest you take it offline. If you want to bring a lawsuit then that is your choice, but I think we're already clear about your repeated accusations and inferences.
-Jon
- - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The issue about the control programming not working as originally intended is obviously valid and I believe it's clear that some folks are unhappy about it. I believe Joe will communicate with us to verfiy and to clarify what happened, even though it already seems abundantly clear that the machine control programming is not as was originally intended.
After my previous interactions with Joe Behm I find it impossible to believe that this is any sort of intentional deception. It seems much more likely (to me) that this was an unexpected issue that is a result of some misunderstanding by the controls engineers.
I will email Joe and ask him if he's willing to respond here, but until he responds to that request I believe there is no value in keeping this thread running so we can see the same complaints and arguments repeated ad nauseum.
tahoejoe Said:
My apologies but I’m in the UK about to meet up for Sunday meetings, so this’ll be rather short
Imagine going to Mars and trying to explain the concept of coffee, coffee profiles, heat applications, cooling etc etc.
That’s what I stepped into over 4 years ago. Trying to explain the above in the most basic of forms to engineers from a non coffee world.
What is presented on the website and elsewhere, are the very charts/ graphics used to illustrate in general terms, the concept of what profiles were.
The data was provided in terms of power (to desired temps) relative to time, broken in percentages to total.
As with the engineers, the charts/ are intended soley to supply general ideas on the way the design is intended to function. Variables such as available voltage, bean density and other factors will alter an actual chart where thermo-couplers/ thermisters are used.
Regarding the elements/ quartz. Inside the quartz are fairly thick coils, which are pulling, being provided full power, but require some time to glow. The reverse is true of power down periods will have lag times.
Key thing to remember is the charts are illustrations only.
Posted Mon Mar 1, 2010, 9:24am Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
OK - I'm going to unlock this thread now because Joe has sent a letter. He's still unable to post, and frankly I wouldn't blame him if he chose to stop posting at CG altogether after this episode...but I hope not.
Anyways, here is what he sent:
My intent was to post this while in El Salvador (after having just returned from Asia) but for some reason my systems (laptop and desktop) both in the USA and while in El Salvador would not and have not allowed me to even pull up the CG site. Jon R has been kind enough to post this. I’ve also forwarded to Jon the exact messages (screen capture) I’ve been receiving for almost 3 weeks in the hopes of trying to figure out the problem.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Not long ago, I stated that upon receiving data from the engineers in Asia, along with running with my own tests, I would return with the results once everything was confirmed. I thank you for your patience as we sorted out the truth of the matter brought up in this thread.
I have just returned from Asia along with Central America and while in Asia I witnessed testing, conferred with engineers, and have indeed confirmed the only way to adjust the full profiles, prior to start, is to press either A, B. C or D. In both the prestart or post start mode, +/- will NOT alter anything except the final leg.
This is a summary of what I have confirmed about how profiles may be adjusted; it is, more or less, what was originally described in the manual, minus the ability to stretch the entire profile (all legs simultaneously) with the use of the +/- buttons:
P2 will operate with programs A, B or C (D exceeds allowed roast time: Part V # 6).
Standard program time associated with P2 is “B”
To shorten the standard roast time, press a weight ( ¼, ½ or 1 ), P2, A, then Start. Add time as necessary to reach your desired roast.
To lengthen the standard roast time press a weight ( ¼, ½ or 1 ), P2, C, then Start. Be prepared to press cool when your desired roast is achieved.
P3 will operate with programs A, B, C, or D.
Standard program time associated with P3 is “C”
To shorten the roast time press a weight ( ¼, ½ or 1 ), P3, either A or B then Start. Add time as needed to reach your desired roast.
To lengthen the standard time press a weight ( ¼, ½ or 1 ), either C or D then Start. Be prepared to press cool when your desired roast is achieved.
P4 and P5 will operate with programs A, B, C or D.
Standard program time associated with P4 and P5 is D.
To shorten the roast time press a weight ( ¼, ½ or 1 ), P4 or P5, either A, B or C then Start. Add time as needed to reach your desired roast.
The above adjustments will only facilitate a slight altering of the profiles.
Example: For Brazilian coffee I personally use P3 and A, then add time as needed. By starting at 18:00 (versus C @ 21:30) it shortens the lower powered segments 1 and 2, I then add time as needed to the highest powered segment.
While I had tested each profile, I did as most, and merely watched elements cycle but never did a power test to confirm. My apologies to everyone for having described the wrong method to manually adjust the profiles, it was completely unintentional. I’d like to thank Doublepedro for noticing the issue and Ira for bringing the thread to my attention. In the coming weeks we will post online the permutations in both graph and chart form for each variation associated with each profile. These will be done with the assistance of the engineering team overseas once they have returned from Chinese New Year and I’ve sat with them again at the end of March.
Let me be clear, I made a mistake by conveying the wrong method for altering pre-set profiles when using + or -, but it was just that, a mistake. There was no intent to deceive, nothing malicious, nothing nefarious in what was written. My description of how to, was wrong. That is now corrected on our site with the proper way to adjust the profiles posted in our manual update section.
Did I consider other options? You bet. But after consultations with engineers and current Behmor users a “fix” as has been suggested, such as a board or program redesign, would in fact have a set of negative consequences. Those consequences were documented in Dec 2008 both online and in manual revision V3.6 when we realized button abuse, as described by users at here CG, could lead to early board failures. Understand the tiny switches behind the membrane have MTBF (mean time between failures) specifications/ ratings. If one presses a button 5X more than anticipated, you at the same time run the risk of reducing the life of that PCB by as much as 20%.
So why redesign anything that could promote the early demise of someone’s coffee roaster? Logic prevailing, you wouldn’t design for failure if you really were looking out for the best interests of your customers. This is especially true when innovative alternatives are presented such as OpenLinux's interesting linear equation or via adjustments of bean mass weight.
In closing I’ve dedicated almost 11 years of my life to the roaster and know we have sought to do our very best at servicing the needs of every one of our customers. We intend upon continuing to do just that with the Behmor 1600 and any other product we may develop but reality states we will make mistakes or fall down. Humans do that, we are fallible. This mistake, of having inadvertently written a wrong method was a lesson in many ways and I apologize to everyone for having made it. I understand this apology and decision may not appeal to everyone, but I'm confident it is the best course for users and longevity of the roaster. I am always willing to receive courteous and respectful feedback and remain tirelessly committed to customer satisfaction. If anyone would like to contact me please feel free to do so at tahoe_joe*at*yahoo*dot*com.
Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,733 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Mon Mar 1, 2010, 10:08am Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
Jon, appreciate you being Joe's liaison here to better serve the Behmor faithful. Please pass on my thanks to Joe if you would for getting us the correct information.
toofast Senior Member Joined: 30 Dec 2008 Posts: 58 Location: Cleveland, OH Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Old Krupps (Barely Use) Grinder: Conical Burr Vac Pot: Not yet... Drip: Capresso MT500 Plus Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Mar 4, 2010, 6:29pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
Wow, is really all I have to say.
Everyone is picking on Ira and I am not sure why.
One of the reason I bought the Behmor was the ability to adjust profiles....or so I thought.
As it turns out it can not do that. I do not think this was deceptive at all, I think it was an honest mistake. And as a business owner myself, I appreciate the honesty that we are getting from Joe. Did it take a long time, yes it did, however I am sure he wanted to make sure.
HOWEVER - I do see Ira's point...if my "product" did not perform as documented, I would surely have some irate customers...so in comparison, Ira was pretty calm about the matter.
Bottom line is we finally have the answer...Joe is a stand up guy, Ira simply wanted the truth...let's get past this and roast some coffee.
In the meantime, I WOULD LOVE for someone to help me understand the BEST way to reduce the "heat" at certain times in order to optimize the roast. Seems like a "VARIAC" is the answer, but will that damage the Behmor? Maybe a official work around could be posted? Or if not...then we should know we are at our own risk on any work arounds...
Posted Thu Mar 4, 2010, 7:02pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
The interesting part is, I've always respected Joe's wishes. He's asked me to keep certain thing private and I always have. I asked him a year ago to look at BT to see if I'd documented his product correctly and I still don't have an answer.
I bought a machine he seemed to think worked one way and in the end it was much less capable that the claims. Personally, I think that's a problem, but somehow that mistake was turned into a supposed benefit to us. Personally, I don't get it. How would you feel if Toyota told you getting there faster was a benefit? Though I personally think it's a witch hunt, I've driven a Toyota Corolla and anyone who says it "took off" when their foot was on the brake is lying, they hardly take off when you foot is on the gas!
I've never modified my machine out of respect for Joe and because how my software supports his machine. I've offered to help him correct some of the manufacturing issues that caused the problems that seems to make everyone think Behmor has great support.
Maybe it's time to teach you all how to modify it so it does manually what it was promised to do automatically. I know more enough to do that, but thought I was doing Joe a favor by keeping quiet.
dharper123 Senior Member Joined: 23 Dec 2009 Posts: 64 Location: Auburn, AL
Espresso: Gaggia Coffee PID Grinder: B Vario Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Mar 4, 2010, 11:37pm Subject: Re: Understanding changes to Behmor roast profiles
I don't know if this chart will be of help to anyone; maybe for those just starting out on the Behmor. It did help me figure a few things out. In addition to having the other tools available, I wanted a straightforward cheat sheet of the various lengths of the power-level legs for P2 at all possible "weight" and ABC combinations. So I put this attached PDF chart together to give me a look at what was possible, in a single frame. The times listed are simply determined by 60/30/10% proportions for P2. Your actual numbers may differ in practice, but this will get you in the ballpark. Note that the times given on the chart are for the durations of the legs, not elapsed time or a countdown. (According to Joe B., excessive pressing of the + button will shorten the controller's life, so extend those A roasts to the max at your own discretion and risk.) One big jump in the chart is readily apparent, between 1/2 C and 1 A. That is, if you're trying to get a power drop to coincide with the onset of a first crack that occurs around 9 1/2 or 10 minutes into the roast (for instance, if you found that point on P1), you can't get there by buttons alone. Instead, that's where you're going to have to adjust the load weight, do a little creative door-opening or, as I try to work it, add some time to the first leg with a pre-heat. It's pretty basic info, but it did help me to understand what that array of buttons means in real life. Essentially I disregard the fact that 1/4 and 1/2 ostensibly indicate weight loads in pounds, and focus instead on what the combinations will deliver. I haven't bothered to chart anything for the other profiles, since P2 is my preference.
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