Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 10:05am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
oldgearhead Said:
My two cents worth: If you have enough electrical savy to modify a toaster-oven roaster, then you should be quite capable of building your coffee roaster...
According to the weird legal reasoning present, now if I build my OWN coffee roaster and burn down my house, YOU are now liable since you suggested it... ;^D
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 10:09am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
There's also the odd off-subject post that can't be caught by reading just the thread subject. There are hundreds of these that suggest modifications to any/all of the roasters used by us hobby roasters. Joe B can't read them all.
Joe, you should probably put the statement in your signature that you do not recommend modification to the Behmor 1600 under any circumstances. We all know this but it probably makes sense to make it more explicit.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
jfutral Senior Member Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 51 Location: Atlanta Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 10:28am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Hey, NetP. No one is saying any of this makes sense, only this is what happens. Insurance companies exist to find any loop hole they can to avoid paying out. And it seems the general public looks to find any opportunity they can to make someone pay, even for their own mistakes. One guy even successfully sued a ceiling fan maker for not explicitly warning people that tossing their baby up into a moving fan will harm the infant.
Go figure, Joe (F)
[edit to add], keep in mind civil suits aren't under the same constraints of proof that criminal suits are. Many of these successful suits are won in civil courts. [disclaimer: I am not a lawyer or in any way trained to offer legal opinion or advice! :-)] JF
JGG Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2006 Posts: 1,343 Location: Kentucky, US Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: PID Silvia; PID Alexia Grinder: Mazzer Mini E (A), SJ; Rocky... Roaster: Hottop D w/PID; Thermometric...
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 11:04am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
First, I want to be clear that I do not have any formal legal training, and that I welcome correction here from those that do. But I'm not going let that be a barrier to spouting off :-)
To be held liable you must breach a duty
To breach a duty you must first have a duty to do something or another
Joe may feel that a judge/jury could conclude he has a duty to users of his product
That duty might be to point out why modifying his product is dangerous
The rest of us probably don't have a duty ... until we post something that says "Hey, do this to your roaster!"
After that, then we probably have a duty to also say "This might not be a good idea, and this is why...."
I think the legal issue would be whether or not a poster of a bad idea simultaneously creates a duty to point out the reasons other readers shouldn't do the same thing. If a duty to warn other readers was created, then the next question would become whether or not they performed the duty adequately by scaring the bejeezus out of folks who might otherwise try it.
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 12:40pm Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
JGG Said:
First, I want to be clear that I do not have any formal legal training, and that I welcome correction here from those that do. But I'm not going let that be a barrier to spouting off :-) To be held liable you must breach a duty To breach a duty you must first have a duty to do something or another Joe may feel that a judge/jury could conclude he has a duty to users of his product That duty might be to point out why modifying his product is dangerous The rest of us probably don't have a duty ... until we post something that says "Hey, do this to your roaster!" After that, then we probably have a duty to also say "This might not be a good idea, and this is why...."
I think the legal issue would be whether or not a poster of a bad idea simultaneously creates a duty to point out the reasons other readers shouldn't do the same thing. If a duty to warn other readers was created, then the next question would become whether or not they performed the duty adequately by scaring the bejeezus out of folks who might otherwise try it.
for the most part, this is essentially the same advice I got when I asked this question of a lawyer acquaintance. In the example of a device modification, saying "this is what I did" is not the same as "I advise you to do what I did."
And under no circumstances would Joe B ever endorse any modifications. But, this fictional extensive never-ending chain of liability is not unlike someone eating moldy bread when they are sick because they heard from someone else that penicillin was discovered in mold - and THEN suing the person they heard it from (or saw posted) for negligence.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
jfutral Senior Member Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 51 Location: Atlanta Expertise: Just starting
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 2:13pm Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Netphilosopher Said:
But, this fictional extensive never-ending chain of liability is not unlike someone eating moldy bread when they are sick because they heard from someone else that penicillin was discovered in mold - and THEN suing the person they heard it from (or saw posted) for negligence.
Good thing no one has presented this fictional scenario. No one is talking about some Joe Schmoe who doesn't know anything about electricity or electronics or even that Joe B. has some duty to police any potential forum that may or may not discuss his product.
The thing about Joe B. is not only is this his field of expertise, but this machine in particular is his design. If he sees something that he believes to be dangerous and he doesn't speak up, he could potentially be held liable. Now, there is a lot of things that would have to be proven, but this is the risk he runs frequenting boards where his product design is often the topic of modification.
I work in an industry that deals with TONS of liability and responsibility, not just to the public but also to the famous people that put their lives in our hands whenever they step on stage (just ask the guys at the fair where the stage and rigging blew over in a storm). If I see something within my field of expertise that I know to be dangerous and I don't speak up and the fact that I knew better and did not speak up is discovered, I can have the pants sued off of me. Maybe not criminal liability, but certainly civil liability.
And that is my experience with liability. Always consult your own lawyer for your own personal liability issues.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,043 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 5:50am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
If a fire occurs and damage is done to a home and the evidence shows that a Behmor was the cause of the fire who do you think the insurance company is going to blame? If the roaster is modified and that can be proven then that is one step closer to the insurance company not paying out. What Joe is doing is covering his end of things and seems this should just be understood and respected, many of a business fails just trying to defend themselves against BS lawsuits.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,043 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Mar 25, 2012, 5:56am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Netphilosopher Said:
According to the weird legal reasoning present, now if I build my OWN coffee roaster and burn down my house, YOU are now liable since you suggested it... ;^D
I have a commercial roaster in my garage and if causes a fire you can bet the insurance company will try very hard not to pay. If I had purchased the 2.5kg machine Diedrich won't honor the warranty with out proof of permits to install that machine.
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