rarebear Senior Member Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Posts: 212 Location: Rex. Georgia USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Fiorenzata Bricoletta Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: Yama 8C Roaster: Hot Top B2
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 1:33am Subject: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
The Behmor has two Quartz Heaters if I am correct...
On the left side there is a 1" long 16ga. wire jumper that connects heaters in series, power comes from other end..
I'd like to add a 125v 20a toggle switch between the jumper to shut heaters off at first crack.. Instead of opening the door since heaters stay on anyway and they are right next to beans.. So I don't think it dose much good slowing the roast..
If I just break the circuit between the heater with a switch is there any danger of harming the electronics? Or should I add switch at the power end of heaters..
tahoejoe Senior Member Joined: 9 Sep 2003 Posts: 557 Location: San Diego/ Incline Village Nv. Expertise: I live coffee
Grinder: Solis Maestro Drip: Behmor Brazen Brew System Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 5:38am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Folks..
I understand why people have the desire to do mods but anytime you get into wiring you run the risk of increasing the potential for issues such as fires, electrocution etc.
Please do not do these mods and especially please do not post them. You put yourself at risk in two ways, personal injury and should someone use the mod and injure themselves/ damage property, a lawsuit from them.
It is not worth it...
REMINDER: Never leave the roaster unattended when in use !! And remember to use our Rosetta Stone tip PART V PARAGRAPH 3.. it works !!!
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 1:34pm Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
When could this funtionality be incorporated into a Behmor, then?
This is a simple fix to a limitation that people have been trying to get around since the Behmors have come out. I read about how to control heating and considered this limitation before I made my roaster purchase.
The fact of the matter is that on P1 and too small of a batch, the system has a tendency to rush the heating profile with no control once it's started. Sometimes it's like planning a football game to the final score ahead of time.
P2 is a great concept, but absolutely no control in changing when the power drop happens once the roast is started - and we all know different beans roast.... differently. (wow, that sounded obvious)
The "opening the door" trick (probably the number 1 work around for more control during roasting) can also interfere with a batch if used too much (the introduction of cool air while the afterburner is going can create some uneven heating).
It's a really good device. It could be a really GREAT device with a few extra abilities (and turning off the elements REDUCES the energy in, not increases - so I don't see the "liability" here). Think of it as a "STOP" button.
And regarding the "liability" question, does that mean anyone who burns down their house with a modified popcorn popper coffee roaster (and pretty much every hobby popcorn popper is modified to roast coffee, because someone who starts down this path ends up modifying it to get it to perform as desired) can then sue all of the sites and any author of a book that mention modifying popcorn poppers?
Really?
Have you read "home coffee roasting" by Ken Davids? His section alone on popcorn popper coffee roasters must make your lawyer's skin crawl.
Going back to roasting now, with a heating gun and dogbowl...
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
tahoejoe Senior Member Joined: 9 Sep 2003 Posts: 557 Location: San Diego/ Incline Village Nv. Expertise: I live coffee
Grinder: Solis Maestro Drip: Behmor Brazen Brew System Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 2:47pm Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Here's the thing.. come up with a mod, I don't recommend you post it. If you do, just be aware an insurance company will check cache files for posts from sites like this should a fire occur. This is not conjecture this is a fact.
It's no different than giving booze to someone and they get into an accident. Someone will seek at the very least to hold you partially accountable. If injury occurs, add negligence.
It's amazing I came here to do a public service because I've been sued and it's depressingly painful to say nothing of the expense. I'd not wish that on anyone, even my ex-wife and my reward was to get a lecture. Nice..
As to the roaster. We advertise it has presets (no manual controls) and will state publicly Do not mod the roaster. Do not add TCs to the interior that could catch on the cylinder.
REMINDER: Never leave the roaster unattended when in use !! And remember to use our Rosetta Stone tip PART V PARAGRAPH 3.. it works !!!
rarebear Senior Member Joined: 13 Dec 2009 Posts: 212 Location: Rex. Georgia USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Fiorenzata Bricoletta Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: Yama 8C Roaster: Hot Top B2
Posted Thu Mar 22, 2012, 2:59pm Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Here is a pic of the unit...
Because of some folks you will see I have two temp-probe holes I had to plug because I could find NO INFO on even adding a thermometer to the unit...
The middle worked best reading of 500º but has no room for the probe between the cage lock and heater guard Top position was way to hot and bottom reads 10º lower than the 500º it should be reading, I may file the hole a little closer to the heater to get correct reading but it really doesn't matter that much..
I'll also post some pics on how to hook up the Roaster Thing and how to load driver later..
OH and this area needs to be cleaned often as the chaff gets blown into the side cover. Don't forget the screw on the inside of the roasting compartment to remove side cover..
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2012, 5:16am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
tahoejoe Said:
Here's the thing.. come up with a mod, I don't recommend you post it. If you do, just be aware an insurance company will check cache files for posts from sites like this should a fire occur. This is not conjecture this is a fact.
It's no different than giving booze to someone and they get into an accident. Someone will seek at the very least to hold you partially accountable. If injury occurs, add negligence.
It's amazing I came here to do a public service because I've been sued and it's depressingly painful to say nothing of the expense. I'd not wish that on anyone, even my ex-wife and my reward was to get a lecture. Nice..
As to the roaster. We advertise it has presets (no manual controls) and will state publicly Do not mod the roaster. Do not add TCs to the interior that could catch on the cylinder.
Joe, I appreciate your sensitivity to the issue, and I understand your position on the matter having been sued. I still have difficulty seeing where someone discussing a modification to a device is just like giving booze to someone. I don't expect you to endorse any modification to the Behmor. This statement of culpability of people posting modifications just doesn't make sense to me.
To me, (just my humble opinion) roasting coffee indoors is not the best idea. I know, I know - everyone does it (well, not me) with the Behmor. I know you've said it's fine for roasting indoors. We all know that roasting coffee is a "watch it like a hawk" endeavor, not a set-it-forget-it task. I know that people do not heed this advice, during roasting, indoors. Throw beans in, set it, come back in about 8 minutes... there is NO way you'd be held responsible for a situation like that, would you?
People have been talking about modifying breadmakers, heating guns, rotisserie ovens, stir-crazy fryers, toaster ovens and the like for ages. Some people have actually caught coffee on fire using modified devices. Nearly every discussion about modifications starts with "you are responsible if you do this and are injured". But from your standpoint, all of these posters that have EVER discussed a modification to a device are potentially at risk for litigation.
Heck, why would anyone post anything? They discuss modifications on Sweetmarias, and cofferoasters.org, and multiple other sites... all of these people are at risk too?
Incidentally, anyone reading should be aware that I do not recommend or endorse any modifications to your roasting devices. Failure to follow the manufacturer's instructions means you are responsible for the outcome.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2012, 5:18am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Also, I'd like to ask again for future behmor models to have a heating reduction or shutoff feature that can be deployed any time during the roast, manually, and the ability to return to the regularly scheduled roast. Just that single feature alone would be VERY helpful. I'm not asking for more power - just a way to reduce it at points of my choosing.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
jfutral Senior Member Joined: 21 Jun 2011 Posts: 51 Location: Atlanta Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Mar 23, 2012, 8:48am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
Netphilosopher Said:
Joe, I appreciate your sensitivity to the issue, and I understand your position on the matter having been sued. I still have difficulty seeing where someone discussing a modification to a device is just like giving booze to someone. I don't expect you to endorse any modification to the Behmor. This statement of culpability of people posting modifications just doesn't make sense to me.
[sympathetic hijack] Kind of a goofy thing about liability is if you see something that is dangerous, you know what you are doing, and you don't take measures to at least voice reasonable concern for the error to be corrected, you can be liable as much as the person who did the work you noticed. So if a thread pops up about modifying a Behmor (and I am sure as much as Joe wants to provide excellent customer service, he monitors most forums as diligently as time allows), he notices it and doesn't say something, he does put himself at risk for liability for that fact alone. No doubt the internet is stress testing much of these dated assumptions.
I have frequented a few electronics boards (I build tube amps as a hobby). While this may seem similar, those boards exist for one thing—building, modifying, repairing tube amps. And there are disclaimers all over the place. And anytime someone comes along that gives some impression that they really shouldn't be sticking their hands in an amp's innards, pretty much at least all the veterans of the board chime in about the dangers, although the discussion does pop up about why the board exists since it is a DIY electronics kind of forum. The voice is always about safety, which should always be forefront in anyone's mind when working with high voltage electronics and really can't be expressed too much. Really. I'm kind of surprised none of the home roasting forum hosts seem to feel the need for similar disclaimers.
The Behmor's limitations are pretty well documented. I kind of think at some point, unless one is just an avid electronics DIY'er, one might be better served buying something else, both in terms of resources spent (time and money) and ultimate satisfaction.
That said, the three things that seem to pop up fairly regularly in conversation and modification form regarding the Behmor are—temp control, bean mass temp monitoring, and faster cooling. While it would be wonderful if Joe addressed these issues himself, I have a feeling that, based on the current design, these would require an overall redesign and probably added expense.
If these things are too difficult given the current design, door opening is the workaround. If that is the ultimate solution, then if Joe could provide maybe at least a general internal thermometer of some sort so the results can at least be more measurable and repeatable, that would be a welcome design change. Some kind of internal temp monitoring has to currently exist based on how the machine works. Seems like this could be easy and inexpensive enough to provide.
But what do I know? There are no 12ax7 tubes so I'm a bit lost!
In the meantime, I am saving my pennies for a HotTop. But thank you, Joe, for making drum roasting something financially attainable for me to get my feet wet! And my wife thanks you, too!
oldgearhead Senior Member Joined: 25 Jan 2010 Posts: 354 Location: Go Colts! Expertise: I like coffee
Grinder: Virtuoso by Baratza Drip: Chemex,Dilongi DCM900 Roaster: 1/2K Fluid-bed
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 9:30am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
My two cents worth: If you have enough electrical savy to modify a toaster-oven roaster, then you should be quite capable of building your coffee roaster...
Posted Sat Mar 24, 2012, 9:32am Subject: Re: Electrical Engineering Question about Behmor Heaters
I understand Joe (B)'s point, but simply put he CANNOT monitor and respond to every post on every coffee-related forum or FB page (and there are a few that DO discuss Behmor modification). The liability of someone posting a modification to a device for someone ELSE'S botching is what I can't seem to grasp.
Opening the door, for example, to cool a roast works. It's one of the recommendations for cooling, it's even in the manual. So long as you've got a low chaff bean, and don't have any drum escapees that are on their way to combustion, it works ok.
But if you're pushing the edge and have a batch of coffee that has a particularly high amount of chaff and you're going into 2nd crack or doing a Monsooned Malabar, opening the door is the WRONG thing to do. It can turn into a miniature version of the movie Backdraft. It's one of the only times I broke the seal (but did not use) my fire extinguisher.
This situation is EVERYWHERE on the 'net. Go to a mustang forum or a corvette forum or a camaro forum or a viper forum... and you see all kinds of posted modifications that are downright potentially dangerous. Technically, in today's automobiles, if you change a front or rear stabilizer bar, or change your brakes from a slider-piston to a 6-piston fixed caliper system, you WILL mess up your ABS and Stability Control. Some subset of these people will encounter the need for these systems at some time - and the brakes won't work they way they intended, or the stability control will be completely mis-calibrated because of these modifications.
If there is injury, I have seen where the plaintiff will go back to frequented forums to look for those telltale posts that someone modified THEIR OWN VEHICLE. But going after everyone else that suggested installing this brake caliper or stabilizer bar? What about the supplier of said parts?
If rarebear installs a switch on his heater elements and burns out his electronics board - well, I don't blame Joe B at all for not supplying a new one or denying coverage. He's seen that rarebear was looking at doing this modification. I expect that now I'm out of the warranty period, I would NEVER expect Joe to cover something on my own Behmor.
If rarebear installs a switch (a simple modification, by the way) and botches it and burns down his house, I can absolutely see the insurance company looking on all of the coffee forums frequented by him and making the case that the cause was a modification he made to his OWN Behmor.
However, it's a big leap from there to suing anyone who's ever mused on how to reduce (or increase or modify) roasting power on the Behmor. Will they go after everyone who's suggested opening the door or using a Variac to modify heating (potentially MORE dangerous modifications to how the Behmor works, by the way).
Maybe it needs to be more specific - IF ANYONE MODIFIES THEIR ROASTER (no matter what kind) AND PROPERTY DAMAGE, INJURY OR DEATH OCCURS, YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS SOLELY RESPONSIBLE. I'd think this is implicit.
I completely understand that Joe doesn't want his device modified, ever. Policing this, however, is exactly what is impossible to do on the internet. The belief that he now has taken on the task to respond to any thread on modification of the Behmor because he thinks that reduces his litigation risk sets him up for an impossible task - Joe B cannot police home-barista, every book that's in print, homeroasters, sweetmarias, and the other coffee and espresso enthusiast sites out there, warning everyone that modifying their Behmor 1600 can potentially be dangerous.
Modifying your automobile can be dangerous. So can wiring circuits your own house, no matter what you find on the internet. So can modifying a popcorn popper or bread machine, so can using a heat gun for something other than it's intended use.
If I understand the warnings posted in this thread and others, the situation is this:
PosterA says: "hey, I made this modification to my HotTop roaster. It was successful, if others have tried it, post your results. If you screw up, though, it's your responsibilty."
PosterB (who does not know PosterA) reads it and attempts to make the same modification. PosterB botches it, and burns down his house and his beloved rare pet hamster burns up.
PosterB's insurance company traces the fire source to the kitchen, where the remains of the modified HotTop are found. PosterB's insurance agency subpoenas coffeegeek's posting caches, and sees that PosterB modified his HotTop POTENTIALLY based on PosterA's original post.
The insurance company sues PosterA for making this information available.
This situation doesn't make sense to me. PosterA got the modification from three other websites, some of which are personal blogs and not open to comments - are these people liable too? It's based on modifications suggested by Ken Davids in his book "home coffee roasting, updated". Is HE now liable too?
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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