germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 1:20pm Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
jwoodyu Said:
Ok Rob I have been kicking around the idea of getting back into roasting. Initially it will be for my own consumption but I retirement is starting to come into sight at least from a planning perspective. I have no desire to make a second carrier from roasting coffee but I might become a shop keeper that has a small coffee bar as an after thought to the main business. If roasting became another part of the puzzle that would be cool to. Pretty much a place I want to hang out in, drink coffee, read and write if the place pays its own way or even gets anywhere close to paying I to own way that would just be a bonus.
With that in mind and knowing what you know now what progression would you recommend on gear? Hottop B, IR-1 if warranted/desired? Or would you go straight from a hotdop into the IR-2.5 or similar? If there are any other steps or models you think I should consider that would be great to know. We go threw about a pound a pound a week so I would want something to start with that can handle that need with ease.
John I like the ring of that plan. The Ir-1 is not going to be helpful for supply, it is a lab roaster to work out profiles and easily pair the results to any of the bigger IR roasters. Honestly Diedrich has kind of removed the Ir-1 from the field for home owners by upping the price to around $10k from what I was told, that is more then the IR-2.5 by a lot. Seems the data logging I always wanted but was not ready for sale when I got my machine is now included but adds $3k, mind you this is just what I heard. Many IR-1s ended up in avid home roasters hands, I am certain we are a much different person to deal with then a business ordering $100k+ worth of equipment, I am not sure hand holding was part of the marketing plan for the IR-1.
I do think the first step is to get capable equipment to learn on and make sure the passion is there for learning to roast as good as the worst of your favorite retailers, getting better then that takes even more work. A modded HotTop B did it for me but today brings more options in and around the same cost, the Quest, and the Huky 500 (a 1lb sit on gas top roaster) come to mind but I am sure there is a few more. Any of these machines will give you the necessary platform to learn but not much quantity.
Going straight for a 1lb commercial gas roaster will raise the up front cost and won't really help the learning any more then on smaller home machines. What it will do is allow small batch roasting and enough quantity to enjoy your roasts with others. You wouldn't be able to keep a coffee house stocked but can share some specialty beans you come across. What you will learn on a commercial 1lb machine that home machine are most challenged with is air flow. Mini 500, the USRC 1lb roaster come to mind and there are others.
1kg machines might take care of a small cafe but if business picks up then the machine will be challenged. For roughly the same price are 2-3kg machine which will offer less time roasting to take care of people and a business needs. 5 and 12kg machines again fall into similar prices. Here is Diedrich's IR chart, http://www.diedrichroasters.com/index.cfm?page=IRSeries , think through pounds per hour you would need and undersize what you would get for growth, buying a second roaster is a big expense if the first cant handle the volume.
For me pairing an IR-1 to match up with an IR-12 down the road made perfect sense.
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 704 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 1:59pm Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
germantownrob Said:
John I like the ring of that plan. The Ir-1 is not going to be helpful for supply, it is a lab roaster to work out profiles and easily pair the results to any of the bigger IR roasters. Honestly Diedrich has kind of removed the Ir-1 from the field for home owners by upping the price to around $10k from what I was told, that is more then the IR-2.5 by a lot. Seems the data logging I always wanted but was not ready for sale when I got my machine is now included but adds $3k, mind you this is just what I heard. Many IR-1s ended up in avid home roasters hands, I am certain we are a much different person to deal with then a business ordering $100k+ worth of equipment, I am not sure hand holding was part of the marketing plan for the IR-1.
I do think the first step is to get capable equipment to learn on and make sure the passion is there for learning to roast as good as the worst of your favorite retailers, getting better then that takes even more work. A modded HotTop B did it for me but today brings more options in and around the same cost, the Quest, and the Hulky (a 1lb gas top roaster) come to mind but I am sure there is a few more. Any of these machines will give you the necessary platform to learn but not much quantity.
Going straight for a 1lb commercial gas roaster will raise the up front cost and won't really help the learning any more then on smaller home machines. What it will do is allow small batch roasting and enough quantity to enjoy your roasts with others. You wouldn't be able to keep a coffee house stocked but can share some specialty beans you come across. What you will learn on a commercial 1lb machine that home machine are most challenged with is air flow. Mini 500, the USRC 1lb roaster come to mind and there are others.
1kg machines might take care of a small cafe but if business picks up then the machine will be challenged. For roughly the same price are 2-3kg machine which will offer less time roasting to take care of people and a business needs. 5 and 12kg machines again fall into similar prices. Here is Diedrich's IR chart, http://www.diedrichroasters.com/index.cfm?page=IRSeries , think through pounds per hour you would need and undersize what you would get for growth, buying a second roaster is a big expense if the first cant handle the volume.
For me pairing an IR-1 to match up with an IR-12 down the road made perfect sense.
Great I was able to find the Qwest but not the Hulky?
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
Whale Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Montreal Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Vivaldi II, MCal,... Grinder: MXKR, Major, Mythos, Baratza... Vac Pot: Vintage Silex Drip: Press only, I don't do drip!... Roaster: Cafemino E and Poppery 1
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 3:21pm Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
I fully agree with what Rob said. I will add that if you are considering increasing the capacity by getting a larger (more than 3 kg) roaster later on, I would suggest that, if you can, you should get a gas roaster. An electric roaster behaves very differently than a gas roaster. I am reminded of this every time I exchange with someone using a gas roaster regardless of size.
I use a 1kg roaster (Toper Cafemino electric) and roast about 3 or 4 kg of coffee every weekend. I give and sell coffee to family, friends and a couple of restaurants. I am still exploring if coffee roasting on a commercial level is an option for my future. But one thing that I know. I would do it on a gas roaster and this will mean relearning how to roast all over again. But in my town, gas roasting inside a residential house is not an option.
You can find lots of information on the Huky 500 following these links.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 5:14pm Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
Thanks Whale, you just reminded me of my first 6 months of hell with the Diedrich, talk about some serious buyers remorse I was having.
For 6 months I beat my head against the wall trying to overlay profiles from the HotTop on the Diedrich, most everything I roasted was flat and boring. Ken Fox who got his IR-1 around the same time as I was a huge help since he was coming from a modded gas sample roaster and IMO far brighter then I, I was moving to slow through my roasts. I have shaved 3 minutes off the overall roast times with the Diedrich compared to the HotTop to get the same results. My understanding of roasting and of my machine has grown considerable since then but put me on a different machine and it would take some time to learn it.
Whale Senior Member Joined: 12 Aug 2009 Posts: 114 Location: Montreal Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Vivaldi II, MCal,... Grinder: MXKR, Major, Mythos, Baratza... Vac Pot: Vintage Silex Drip: Press only, I don't do drip!... Roaster: Cafemino E and Poppery 1
Posted Sun Jan 20, 2013, 6:30pm Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
Funny. I had to learn to do the opposite. I moved up from a tricked up Poppery (which I still use for small batches) and I had to let go of the old profile understanding I had and accept that the Cafemino needed to roast at a much lower speed with much slower reactions and transitions.
If I had to make a choice today, and I was allowed, I would choose a 1 lb gas roaster, probably the Mini 500 and prepare for the next step. But I am sure that changing from any 2 machines carries its set of challenges that is very unique to the very 2 machines.
jwoodyu Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2010 Posts: 704 Location: Michigan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Allex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major Roaster: Poppery
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 6:21am Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
Thank you both, down the rabbit hole i go. If I had to map it out today after a couple hours of reading it would be Huky 500, IR-2.5 then IR-12.5 with each step after the Huky coming as warranted. Clearly I don't have to map it all out today and I have tons more reading to do before I make even the first step.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 6:52am Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
jwoodyu Said:
Thank you both, down the rabbit hole i go. If I had to map it out today after a couple hours of reading it would be Huky 500, IR-2.5 then IR-12.5 with each step after the Huky coming as warranted. Clearly I don't have to map it all out today and I have tons more reading to do before I make even the first step.
I really like what I have seen about the Huky 500. I would be doing you an injustice if I didn't say look at other manufactures, Diedrich makes amazing machine that are very green when it comes to the gas they use to roast but you will pay. A rough example would be if you wanted full automation, I believe you could get a USRC 5kg machine with full automation for the same as a IR-5, automation at Diedrich starts around $10k. The last time I checked the IR-5 and 12 where $17.5k-19.5 (something like that) and an afterburner, so a 12 with after burner and automation is going to be in the $30k neighborhood plus hook up and trucking costs.
A piece of info for those thinking about a Diedrich 2.5, the last I heard they would not honor their warranty unless you can provide permits for its hook up.
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,017 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Jan 21, 2013, 7:09am Subject: Re: Question(s) on Toper Cafemino 1KG Roaster & Diedrich IR-1
Whale Said:
Funny. I had to learn to do the opposite. I moved up from a tricked up Poppery (which I still use for small batches) and I had to let go of the old profile understanding I had and accept that the Cafemino needed to roast at a much lower speed with much slower reactions and transitions.
If I had to make a choice today, and I was allowed, I would choose a 1 lb gas roaster, probably the Mini 500 and prepare for the next step. But I am sure that changing from any 2 machines carries its set of challenges that is very unique to the very 2 machines.
Something I can do with my IR-1 gas machine is when roasting a bean to city for espresso and I want 3 min minimum from the start of first to the end of first when it will be dumbed. I can slow the roast down fairly quickly, still best to lower heat before start of first but I have done it coming in hot, by increasing fan and lower gas to the point just before stall of .1f increase per second or even a complete stall at the end of city to reduce acid but keeping a city roast.
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