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Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
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scottfsmith
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Posted Sat Nov 6, 2004, 7:53pm
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

DEchelbarger Said:

I am going to quote Tom from Sweet Maria's just to add another voice to this conversation about roast times  in terms of taste:

"One last thought ... don't get hung up on overall roast times. 8 minutes, 11 minutes, 14 minutes ... it DOES NOT matter! "

Posted November 5, 2004 link

I used to go by that quote, but the more roasts I did the less it seemed to make sense to me, at least with my particular i-Roast on lighter roasts. I recently did another experiment of short vs long roast for a city+/full city roast.  The previous experiments had a short roast not getting quite as done-looking as the longer one, and this time I got them to the same level of doneness.  The short roast was 460/9:30, and the long one was 400/15.  They definitely tasted different, with the shorter one being brighter and more acidic, the longer one deeper, more chocolate and more mellow (the beans are Columbian Popayan).  I strongly prefer the latter kind of flavor, so part of it is my personal bias.  The problem with the short one though is it has this harsh aftertaste in the back of the throat, what I would definitely call a flaw.  My guess is it is because the beans did not evenly cook since the temp went up so fast.  Maybe it will mellow, its only rested 12 hours.  See TC profiles below.  Anyway, Tom could well be right but I have yet to get a short city+/full city roast that I really liked from the i-Roast, but have had many 12 minute and longer ones that were great.


Abe_Carmeli Said:

Scott,

What was your roast profile on the 12 minutes roast ?

Abe

Posted November 5, 2004 link

Abe, lately I have been doing these simple profiles of just one phase since I haven't found a strong reason to switch the temp.  For full city level roast I do something like 410-415 for 12 minutes, or 400-405 for 15 minutes.    These temps are pretty machine dependent, my i-Roast also runs hot I think.  The 12-minute roasts get to around 432 by the end on my TC, and the 15 minute ones a little less, around 427.  The short 460/9:30 one ended up at 453, so you can see the general trend of how a shorter roast has to end hotter to get the same degree of doneness.  One other kind of profile I have been trying is something like 420/7 405/5 -- have it hotter in front to get up to first crack a little faster.  I don't know if it really makes much difference though, so I stopped doing that.  The main thing as you can see to get a long roast is to have the last half or so be at a pretty low temperature.

Scott

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brokencup
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brokencup
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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Posted Sun Nov 7, 2004, 5:58am
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

scottfsmith Said:

I used to go by that quote, but the more roasts I did the less it seemed to make sense to me, at least with my particular i-Roast on lighter roasts. I recently did another experiment of short vs long roast for a city+/full city roast.  The previous experiments had a short roast not getting quite as done-looking as the longer one, and this time I got them to the same level of doneness.  The short roast was 460/9:30, and the long one was 400/15.  They definitely tasted different, with the shorter one being brighter and more acidic, the longer one deeper, more chocolate and more mellow (the beans are Columbian Popayan).  I strongly prefer the latter kind of flavor, so part of it is my personal bias.  The problem with the short one though is it has this harsh aftertaste in the back of the throat, what I would definitely call a flaw.  My guess is it is because the beans did not evenly cook since the temp went up so fast.  Maybe it will mellow, its only rested 12 hours.  See TC profiles below.  Anyway, Tom could well be right but I have yet to get a short city+/full city roast that I really liked from the i-Roast, but have had many 12 minute and longer ones that were great.

Scott

Posted November 6, 2004 link

Scott,

My two comments would be -

  1. Chocolate is not a variatal flavor. You get to chocolate when you start caramelizing the sugars. If this is the flavor your going for then check your roasts at the same 15 minute setting with different origins to see if your retaining enough of the origin characteristics to make it worth while switching origins or blending.

  2. I worry that your ramp of 25 degrees in the final 8 minutes or 3 degrees per minute would be almost so slow as to amount to baking the beans. I have assumed that one would need a faster ramp to keep the roast moving.

I am once again reminded of Jim Schulman's opinion that it dosen't make any difference how long it takes to get to 1st crack ( around 395 on my TC) a time of from 3 to 6 minutes from the start of 1st to completion is pretty constant across roasting methods for good taste results.

Bob
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ljguitar
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ljguitar
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Posted Sun Nov 7, 2004, 7:10am
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

brokencup Said:

---Chocolate is not a variatal flavor. You get to chocolate when you start caramelizing the sugars.

Posted November 7, 2004 link

Hi Bob...
So you are theorizing that Chocolate is an effect or overtone (scrambling for adequate words here) or result of the roast reaching a certain time/temp combo?

Now I do know that nobody grows Chocolate Coffee Beans (except the Nestle's factory and Keebler's Elves) but if what I thought you were saying is true, wouldn't it be possible to 'create' a chocolate overtone with every bean available? Or were you referenceing Scott's particular bean?

L a r r Y

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brokencup
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brokencup
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Posted Sun Nov 7, 2004, 9:09am
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

ljguitar Said:

Hi Bob...
So you are theorizing that Chocolate is an effect or overtone (scrambling for adequate words here) or result of the roast reaching a certain time/temp combo?

Now I do know that nobody grows Chocolate Coffee Beans (except the Nestle's factory and Keebler's Elves) but if what I thought you were saying is true, wouldn't it be possible to 'create' a chocolate overtone with every bean available? Or were you referenceing Scott's particular bean?

L a r r Y

<)))><

Posted November 7, 2004 link

Larry,

This is my reading of the SCAA Coffee Cupper's Handbook page 8.

"The presence of these sugar browning by-products depends entirely on the roasting process.............Further heating reduces the caramel into pyrazine compounds, so full roasted coffee may have a chocolaty character..... Heating beyond this point begins to burn up the sugar browning products......"

Bob
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scottfsmith
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 159
Location: Baltimore
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Rancilio S26 / NS Appia
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Technivorm
Roaster: RK Drum YEAH!
Posted Mon Nov 8, 2004, 7:31am
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

brokencup Said:

Chocolate is not a variatal flavor.

Posted November 7, 2004 link

 This particular Columbian bean has a strong chocolate varietal flavor, Tom's description mentions a dutch cocoa flavor even at light roasts.  Note that the 9:30 roast also has a chocolate flavor, just not as strong.

brokencup Said:

I worry that your ramp of 25 degrees in the final 8 minutes or 3 degrees per minute would be almost so slow as to amount to baking the beans. I have assumed that one would need a faster ramp to keep the roast moving.

Posted November 7, 2004 link

I also worry about such a slow ramp, but in the end its the taste that matters and it seems to work.  Try it.  Note that 15 minutes is probably too long, I did that for maximum contrast in the cupping.  12 minutes is probably a better length for a full city roast.  Slow ramps seem really bad in the high 300's, all the flavor gets baked out.  But above first crack I haven't noticed a big negative so far.

brokencup Said:

I am once again reminded of Jim Schulman's opinion that it dosen't make any difference how long it takes to get to 1st crack ( around 395 on my TC) a time of from 3 to 6 minutes from the start of 1st to completion is pretty constant across roasting methods for good taste results.

Posted November 7, 2004 link

On the 9:30 roast I did, first crack ended only about a minute before the roast was over, and this seems to leave the roast with a bit too much rawness.  I have had better luck 3-6 minutes from the end of first crack to the end of the roast.  Note that if you are going to second crack I don't think it matters, since the beans will get all the rawness cooked out of them.

Scott
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ljguitar
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ljguitar
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Posted Mon Nov 8, 2004, 7:57am
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

brokencup Said:

---This is my reading of the SCAA Coffee Cupper's Handbook page 8.
---"The presence of these sugar browning by-products depends entirely on the roasting process.............Further heating reduces the caramel into pyrazine compounds, so full roasted coffee may have a chocolaty character..... Heating beyond this point begins to burn up the sugar browning products......"

Posted November 7, 2004 link

Thanks Bob...
I hadn't really thought deeply about chocolaty character versus a chocolatey flavor before...but then coffee is usually best drunk rather than theorized over at our house. Your comment just made me start pondering it (I'm still thinking).

One espresso blend we use has a definite cocoa mouth feel to it as well as a slight chocolate flavor being imparted. Several folks have commented on it (they asked if we put chocolate in it actually), and my suspicion is it could be a combination of the 'chocolaty chracter' you mentioned with a slight 'chocolate overtone' from the Uganda Bugisu in the blend.

L a r r Y

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scottfsmith
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Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 159
Location: Baltimore
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Espresso: Rancilio S26 / NS Appia
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Roaster: RK Drum YEAH!
Posted Tue Nov 9, 2004, 6:44am
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

I have a very interesting addendum to my above experiment.  The beans have now aged 72 hours, not in an oxygen-free environment (just a sealed container).  Well, the 15-minute roast has lost nearly all its flavor!  It is completely dull, boring, nothing.  The 9:30 on the other hand seems better than before.  It is still a bit edgy, but almost in a good way.  It is not chocolate, but is nicely spicy.

This reminds me a lot of wine.  If the grapes are very ripe when picked, the resulting wine will oxidify very quickly.  My wife doesn't drink wine so I often am drinking from a bottle opened a day or two ago.  Some wines get a lot better after a day, but some have lost all their flavor.   I ran out of wine last week and only had one bottle of very expensive Pomerol left and decided to drink it.  It was truly unbelievable the first day, a very ripe, rich, intense wine.  Only a day later it was half what it was, and it was garbage in three days.

It seems the "ripe" coffee roast is a long roast, it oxidizes very quickly.  One other thing about the long roasts is they taste great right after roasting.

My conclusion at this point is the only way to use the long roast is to freeze it right after roasting to lock in the flavor.  Either that or use it in 24 hours.  In a future experiment I would like to compare the frozen 15-minute roast with the non-frozen 9:30 after 72 hours and see which is better.  My memory has the 15-minute one on top, it had many dimensions of flavor if I recall, whereas the 72-hour 9:30 roast was spicy and acidic but not much else.

Bob, your comment about "baked" makes a lot more sense in the light of the above, after 72 hours rest it is completely baked.

Scott
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brokencup
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brokencup
Joined: 18 Feb 2004
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Posted Tue Nov 9, 2004, 5:51pm
Subject: Re: Roasting time to first crack and 2nd Crack on the IRoast
 

Scott,

In addition, my tasting has led me to conclude that an inital temp setting of 350dF for 3 to 4 minutes is beneficial. Per our previous conclusion, I have been programing the first temperature higher, frequently 400dF. I have noticed that my recent efforts have not been nearly as lively (the same experience you describe above) as earlier roasts so I have reverted to my older profiles. In searching for an explanation, I found this on alt.coffee.

Low acid beans, like your roasting, and darker colored roasts aren't
as affected by what's happening before the first crack. For brighter
beans, especially at lighter roasts, a longer ramp to the first seems
to preserve the nce tastes and reduce sourness in a way that's hard to
get by extending the roast after the first.

This makes some sense, the Maillard reactions that determine the
origin flavors start at around 290F, whereas the caramelization
reactions that mostly determine the roast flavors start at around
400F. So when the origin flavors are important, what happens between
290 and 400 is important.


--
Jim

(jim_schulman@ameritech.net)



Bob
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