Enrico Senior Member Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 60 Location: London Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza Grinder: Nemox Lux, Zassenhaus Vac Pot: Bodum Santos Drip: no drip 4 me
Posted Sat Oct 25, 2003, 5:44pm Subject: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
I'm new to this site and let me say first of all that I'm impressed with the amount of useful info in the forums. I've been happily using Bodum french presses for years, safe in the knowledge that they produce better coffee than drip brewers and look better, too.
But the novelty factor has worn off and being on the lookout for something new and more exciting, I thought I'd get a Bodum mini (or baby?) eSantos, which I think looks great and has got even more of a "show" factor about it. After reading countless reviews I'm slightly less excited about it, though.
I can live with messy cleaning, but technical faults, inconsistent quality and lack of brew strength that's cumbersome to remedy put me off.
My question is: is it really worth the trouble? Also, I understand brew quality is better than with drip, but is it better than french press, too? any experience with comparisons? Would be great to hear your opinions.
Posted Fri Oct 31, 2003, 10:43am Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
Enrico - I own a variety of french presses and I own an eSantos.
Bottom line, don't bother with the eSantos. It just doesn't get the water hot enough. I can definitely make better coffee with the french press.
I just bought a Capresso drip machine that makes better coffee than the eSantos. I purchased the CoffeeTEC from Capresso's website as a factory referb for $119, not much more expensive than the eSantos. As someone in another post pointed out, there is a similar machine called the Melitta Choco Latte that is manufactured by Capresso, but has less of the fancy features (timer, 3-4 cup brew cycle etc.). You can buy it new for $99.
If you are into the Vac pot idea, I would get a traditional glass one. I don't own one, but it is definitely on my wish list.
Posted Fri Oct 31, 2003, 6:50pm Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
Enrico Said:
I'm new to this site and let me say first of all that I'm impressed with the amount of useful info in the forums. I've been happily using Bodum french presses for years, safe in the knowledge that they produce better coffee than drip brewers and look better, too.
But the novelty factor has worn off and being on the lookout for something new and more exciting, I thought I'd get a Bodum mini (or baby?) eSantos, which I think looks great and has got even more of a "show" factor about it. After reading countless reviews I'm slightly less excited about it, though.
I can live with messy cleaning, but technical faults, inconsistent quality and lack of brew strength that's cumbersome to remedy put me off.
My question is: is it really worth the trouble? Also, I understand brew quality is better than with drip, but is it better than french press, too? any experience with comparisons? Would be great to hear your opinions.
Like the previous poster said, you might want to get a traditional vac pot instead. The coffee isn't exponentially better, but done right you will notice the difference. Your coffee will be cleaner (no grounds in the bottom) and maybe have a bit more flavor because of the extra pressure exerted on the grounds.
I still use my french press for day to day, though. The process of cleaning out my Bodum Santos (and worrying about breakage) relegates it to weekend duty. One thing I have to say, though -- they are fun! I always like to pull it out when I have company -- everyone really enjoys the show and the coffee.
While I respect everyone's opinion, these statements exemplify the subjectiveness of coffee tastes. No doubt there may be unit-to-unit variance that results in coffee that's not hot enough. Mine brews in the proper temperature range. Personally, I think the Mini-Santos is a great product for what it is. It's not the "be all end all," but IMO it's currently the best attempt at an electric vac pot out there.
My two cents:
You'll go nuts trying to compare all of the brewing methods to each other. If you really do prefer French press, then stick with it. Vacuum brewing is a different animal, with different results. I too like French press, but I prefer vacuum brewed coffee. Why? Personally (here we go again with the personal tastes), I don't like all of the sediment from the French press (some do)and I don't like all of the oils (some do). I also don't like drip coffee because I think it strips too much of the oils from the brew (not to mention the problem of trying to find a brewer that will brew at the right temp). This is where the vac pot comes in. I think vac pot coffee is a good compromise between French press and drip with respect to the amount of oils in the cup, without compromising the taste. Just enough IMO. In the spectrum of non-espresso coffee consistency, you have French press at one end (lots of sediment/suspended powder/lots of oils), vac pot in the middle (a little bit of sediment/suspension/some oils - depending on filter type), and drip methods (very clean/no sediment/ little oil - again depending on the filter type). Form here, you can tweak each method to taste, including experimenting with filter types, etc.
Back to the Mini Santos:
I can't speak for others, but mine brews at proper temps.
The nylon filter does pass some sediment, but this can be controlled with the grind. A good grinder helps a lot.
Brew time varies from unit to unit, but if you search the archives here, you will find fixes to a short brew cycle (i.e., slightly inclining the pot on the base with a quarter). If you get one with an "up top" time of approx. 1 minute 20 seconds, you're in good shape. I got lucky. Mine stays up top for about 1 minute 40 seconds to 2 minutes depending on orientation(I think the counter top might be sloped).
The pot is difficult to keep clean over time, as sediment and coffee gets trapped in the tight area between the base and the sidewall. A sponge on a stick is all you need to clean inside the pot as best as possible. The remaining portions are easy to clean.
If you prefer a cleaner cup than the Santos, try a Yama stove top. It has a cloth filter that IMO does a great job of passing flavor while filtering sediment. Even though it is a manual procedure, my Yama is my "go to" brewer. You control all of the variables (control is a good thing). And it's cheap (around $35).
Bottom line, don't discount the Mini-Santos from anyone's single opinion. Take it all in, and then make an informed decision based on what is important to you.
Sorry for such a long post, but as you can tell from around here, you can go on forever about coffee (My God, what happened to me?).
Posted Tue Nov 4, 2003, 9:50am Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
By the way, before you write off electronic vacpots altogether, there is a new one from Black and Decker called the Infuze. Stupid name, but I've heard a couple good things about it. You might want to look into that one too.
Posted Tue Nov 4, 2003, 5:50pm Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
As an owner of an electric mini-Santos and a French press, I have to go with the press as making better coffee. The Santos doesn't get hot enough. (Hmmm, I wonder if it would make good tea?)
If you really hate sediment, a Chemex may be your thing. Otherwise, press pot coffee is the tastiest. Except for espresso, moka pot and ibrik of course. ;)
Posted Wed Nov 5, 2003, 12:51am Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
Looking at the amazon.com reviews is pretty deceiving. People are complaining left and right about how their santos broke and how flimsy the parts are.
Blasphemy I say! This unit is swiss engineered for precision and efficiency. It's not made to be beaten up like your Mr. Coffee. Treat it decently, and it will continue to work right. I've had mine for 11 months and haven't had a single problem. No electronic failures, no broken lids, and no the keypad isn't that hard to read!
EricSilver Senior Member Joined: 5 Nov 2003 Posts: 5 Location: Cheshire, CT Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Estro Profi Grinder: solis maestro plus Drip: Starbucks Barista Grand...
Posted Wed Nov 5, 2003, 9:19pm Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
I just purchased the Infuze. It's made by Black and Decker, but it doesn't appear on their web site. I contacted B&D, and like Mark received no reply. I obtained mine from TechnoScout--a company specializing in cutting-edge type products. (You may have received their catalog, or they're available at technoscout.com.)
My incentive for the purchase was a review which appeared in Cook's Illustrated, which listed this as the best of what's out there, provided you like your coffee somewhat richer (i.e., European style), and find that drip pots often produce an insipid brew. I have to cheat--I can't focus on making coffee first thing in the morning, so I have to set up before going to bed. If my wife (a surgeon) doesn't start an i.v. caffeine drip on me first thing in the morning, I need to have a cup ready to go at the instant I wake up. This machine is easy to program, and the coffee was ready right on time.
Here's the scoop--it does make a really fine cup of coffee--rich, full-flavored, well-rounded--fairly close to a french press coffee. The operation is astonishingly quick. A heater in the base heats the water fairly rapidly and it rises to the top chamber where it remains in contact with the grounds for a full 3 to 4 minutes. I don't know where someone got the 1 minute figure from. It didn't happen in my machine. Then, with a great whoosh! the coffee drops down to the bottom carafe. Just pull off the top (you may have to work a bit to break the seal) and pour yourself a first-rate cup of coffee. We made two pots in parallel--one in the Infuze, the other in an electric drip pot, using the same amount of water and coffee for each. No question about it--the coffee produced in the Infuze was definitely richer. (as it ought to have been, given that it doesn't pass through a filter as the drip coffee does. (yes--there's a plastic mesh filter to keep the grounds out of the bottom carafe, but it's not the same as a paper or gold-tone filter.)
Is there a down side? You bet there is, and it's a biggie! This device is impossible to clean. The heating element is permanently bonded to the carafe and it is not immersible. You have to run soap and water inside, scrub it (but not too hard, as it's plastic and the instructions caution against using anything rough on it--so we used a teflon sponge.) With all that, and with a great deal of elbow grease, the darned thing never did come clean. not really. And, if you're one of those people who believes that coffee must be made in really clean utensils, then you'll be frustrated in fairly short order. By the third pot, my machine had developed some permanent scale, and looked rather unsightly on the counter. (and this with filtered water, no less.)
I phoned customer service at Black and Decker and was told that in order to clean the device, you need to put a denture cleaning tab in the carafe after each pot. "You're joking" I said. "Not if you want the carafe to be really clean," she replied. I calculated that it was taking me about ten minutes to clean the carafe, and then rinse it carefully repeatedly to get all the soapy water out without sloshing any water over the side.
So--after three days, I phoned TechnoScout and told them that I was returning the item. They were entirely good-natured about it. Seems I'm not the only one with this problem.
Bottom line--your call. It makes a really fine cup of coffee. Not as good as a French press, but a close second. However, spending ten minutes to clean it after each pot could get old after a while. It certainly did for me.
Hope this info is helpful. Eric A. Silver, always in search of that great cup. And I simply must have an automatic machine for that first cup of the day--so I'm still trying to find the right one.
Posted Thu Nov 6, 2003, 4:37am Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
Great information to have! Thanks, Eric. I'll probably stay away -- I barely have enough time to clean all the stuff I already have.
You should consider posting your review to the reviews section so everyone can read about the Infuze. I think it piqued a lot of intererst when it was anounced a few months back.
Enrico Senior Member Joined: 16 Oct 2003 Posts: 60 Location: London Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza Grinder: Nemox Lux, Zassenhaus Vac Pot: Bodum Santos Drip: no drip 4 me
Posted Thu Nov 6, 2003, 8:54am Subject: Re: Bodum eSantos or French press? Help!
Hi everyone, thanks all for your very useful opinions on the french press vs. eSantos dilemma.
I decided to follow Joel's and others' advice and stick with the french press for everyday use. I'll get a new one though, probably the bodum Eileen 'cos it looks great and I like to think that all the metal around it helps keep the coffee warmer than glass-only models (I'm aware of the over-extraction risk, but I like to drink my coffee slowly when I've got the time and couldn't be bothered to pour it into a thermos and have one more thing to clean...)
For weekends, especially when friends are around I'll get a traditional vac pot instead of the eSantos or the Infuze. Thanks to Eric for highlighting the cleaning problem with that one! I totally agree with Dalton that 10 mins cleaning after each use is too much to ask. I think I'll go for the Hario Nouveau, mainly due to Mark's review, and if I can't find it in Europe I'll buy the traditional santos. Enrico
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