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Technivorm Moccamaster CD question-- "Is it hot enough for ya?"
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Bergie
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Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 384
Location: So. Cal.
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bialetti stovetop
Grinder: Capresso Infinity
Vac Pot: Yama,Cory,
Drip: Technivorm,KMB
Posted Thu Apr 12, 2007, 5:34pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

varuscelli_II Said:

Hey, don't give up on it yet.  Good idea from steamer about checking the temp of the metal spray head itself.  That sucker DOES get hot...  :-)    And it would be interesting to see what kind of temp you get off the chrome, as measured from perhaps the side of the spray head.  If you do that, please do share the results in this thread.  I'd sure like to know what kind of reading you get.  

And you might just try and talk with someone at Boyd's and see what they have to say, after you've finished all your temperature checks. It still might be in the realm of possibility that there's something the matter with he unit you received.  

And I gotta tell ya', even though I find it to have its faults, I love the coffee I'm making with mine.  I'd hate to have to give it up at this point.  ;-)

Al

Posted April 12, 2007 link

 Al:
  I've enjoyed your posts on this thread,despite my feeling that overly detailed scientific approaches are not really necessary. However,let's get to the real point. This chap has said,very clearly,that his cup is not hot enough to suit him. From what he's said about temps.,it sounds like his machine may well be just fine. I just wish he could simply stick a simple cooking thermometer in one of the holes of the sprayhead--is that so complicated?
 Above all,he says his cup is not hot enough to suit him.Tastes vary in this area. Like you,I find it more than hot enough.
 Our friiend might well be best off,if he's unwilling to check in the above manner,simply look at a vacpot or a pourover. If those are not hot enough,he's out of luck.
                                    Regards,
                                    Barry
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rmongiovi
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Feb 2006
Posts: 407
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Ditting KR805
Drip: Technivorm; Bonavita...
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Thu Apr 12, 2007, 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

Bergie Said:

However,let's get to the real point. This chap has said,very clearly,that his cup is not hot enough to suit him.

Posted April 12, 2007 link

Actually, he's said more than that.  He's said a thermometer in the brewing basket shows 160 degree water.  I believe he must have a procedural error to measure a temperature so low, or he's operating the TV in a deep freeze.  The TV is powered by the boiling of water, and since he's in San Diego he should be pretty much at sea level.  Now there's some heat loss as the boiling water makes it from the heating element to the brew basket, but he ought to get 190F easily.  I simply don't see how he's going to get better than that with any drip coffee brewer unless he adds an afterburner to it....

Now, personally I don't care if he sends the TV back and tries something else.  I'm simply interested in his claim that the water coming out of the spout into the brew basket is 160F, which I suspect is highly unlikely due to the design of the TV.

Now, if you want to actually discuss his complaint about too cool a cup...  My first suspicion, since he says he has the thermal carafe, is that he's not preheating the carafe before brewing hot coffee into it.  If that is the case, then I can EASILY understand why he thinks his cup is too cold - he's cooling it down by pouring it into a cold thermal carafe.  Without improving that technique no drip maker with a thermal carafe will make him happy....
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,263
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
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Posted Thu Apr 12, 2007, 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

rmongiovi Said:

Now there's some heat loss as the boiling water makes it from the heating element to the brew basket, but he ought to get 190F easily.  I simply don't see how he's going to get better than that with. I simply don't see how he's going to get better than that with any drip coffee brewer unless he adds an afterburner to it....

Posted April 12, 2007 link

The Newco OCS line brews 200F+!

 
http://twitter.com/CoffeegeekCraig
http://www.facebook.com/craig.andrews.169
http://plus.google.com/u/0/100690035958728038289/posts/p/pub

Excellent coffee doesn't just happen!
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rmongiovi
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Joined: 7 Feb 2006
Posts: 407
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Ditting KR805
Drip: Technivorm; Bonavita...
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Thu Apr 12, 2007, 8:12pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

CraigA Said:

The Newco OCS line brews 200F+!

Posted April 12, 2007 link

So does the TV.  Unless you operate it in a pressure cooker, 212F is as hot as it gets....
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,263
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Thu Apr 12, 2007, 8:17pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

Yeah, I understand the principal & get it..

 
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http://www.facebook.com/craig.andrews.169
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jadventurous
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
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Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola
Grinder: Baratza Maestro Plus
Drip: Technivorm Moccamaster CD...
Posted Thu Apr 12, 2007, 9:43pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

Thanks, folks. I appreciate the lively debate. I decided to document the process end to end, and actually got some better results than in my first few tests. See for yourself at:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=mVJZjd3Yyvc


I added some music to make it more exciting. Enjoy!

JAD
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varuscelli_II
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varuscelli_II
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 271
Location: League City, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Drip: Technivorm KBT-741
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2007, 10:59am
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

Hi, JAD

Nicely done.  ;-)

Still interesting on the low temp readings, though.  You're obviously getting the temps you're getting, but I wonder why?  

I'm not sure how the laser-style thermometers work, but is it at all possible that if it's doing a surface measurement (if that's how it works) it might not be giving an accurate measurement of the overall "inner" temperature of the liquid?  I'm not sure of the physics involved in these kinds of measurements (and specifically for the Raytek), but have you tried double-checking with a simple meat thermometer that you can insert deeply into the water to see if it matches what the Raytek is showing?  It might be nice to match the high tech with the low tech just to see if you get any discrepancies or if you get a match.  

You ought to give it a try (borrow a meat thermeter if you don't own one already).  And let us know if you do the comparison.  I'm sure curious about it.  ;-)

Al
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rmongiovi
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Grinder: Ditting KR805
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Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2007, 12:14pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

IR thermometers work by measuring the infrared light emitted by all warm bodies.  The "laser" part is just a pointer so that you know where the device is aimed so that you know where it's measuring the IR radiation.  Essentially, these types of thermometers measure the surface temperature of what they're aimed at, without having to have any contact with the object, by measuring the emitted infrared light.

I'd expect the major problem in this particular application is that water vapor absorbs infrared radiation.  A quick google tells me that water vapor is "strongly absorbant" in the infrared, and that in fact water vapor is responsible for 36% of the greenhouse effect.  What that means in percentage of absorption in the infrared frequency used by the Raytek I don't know.  It would, however, make me suspect that using an infrared thermometer to measure hot water, which is certainly emitting a great deal of water vapor, might result in an inaccurate reading due to absorption of the emitted IR radiation.
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varuscelli_II
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varuscelli_II
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 271
Location: League City, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Drip: Technivorm KBT-741
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2007, 12:56pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

Yeah . . . from the bit of reading I did, I saw some things that seem to indicate that the IR thermometers can have some difficulty with chrome surfaces, too, so a measurement from the surface of the spray head could also give an inaccurate reading.  :-/
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jadventurous
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Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Posts: 10
Location: San Diego, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Pavoni Europiccola
Grinder: Baratza Maestro Plus
Drip: Technivorm Moccamaster CD...
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2007, 2:46pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm Moccamaster -- "Is it hot enough for ya?" FINAL VERDICT: NO
 

You know, I THOUGHT this issue would arise, given the high caliber of folks here. :)

So I took the liberty of creating a video that shows a pot of water, brought to boil, and the temperature readings of the device as and while water boils. Once water boiled, the temps were hovering between 210 and 214 or so, so that tells me that it's pretty accurate. I am situated only about 100 ft. above sea level.

Boiling water test: http://youtube.com/watch?v=NleJ4JNS4y4

Also, I uploaded the original Technivorm test video to YouTube.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mVJZjd3Yyvc

JAD
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