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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 2:37pm
Subject: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Hi all,

Yet another question/posting on lower-than-expected brew temps from a new Technivorm.  I've searched the archives & read quite a few threads on the subject, so I realize I'm not breaking any new ground with my confusion.

I got my KBTS (graphite!) just over a week ago.  I already had two kitchen thermometers on hand (one glass candy & one metal meat), but they were both reading very low brew temps (in the 160F to 165F range).  So, I bought a new metal spike thermometer just for testing brew temps (they really ought to include one with each brewer!), & proceeded to calibrate it.

For the low end, a glass of refrigerated water with ice cubes measured 33F.  For the high end I used a Bodum Curl cordless electric water kettle.  Since I live at approximately 5,000' elevation (just north of Denver, CO), water tends to boil right around 203F (+/-1F, depending on what the barometer reads).  The thermometer came with a slipcase that doubles as a handle, so I was able to hold it well into the water without getting scalded.  At about 150F the water began a "contained" boil, where large bubbles would rise but not break the surface.  True boiling began around 160F, & the thermometer quickly rose to 190F.  After quite a while (maybe 30 seconds?  maybe longer?) of vigorous boiling, the temp finally reached 203F.  I feel the thermometer is reasonably accurate for testing brew temp.

Now, on to the KBTS.  I filled the reservoir with a full liter (34 oz) of filtered water from the tap, closed the basket drain & turned on the machine.  I held the thermometer so that the tip was just off the Swissgold filter bottom.  This allowed me to measure the water coming out of the showerhead but also keep the temp from fluctuating during "boiling surges" being delivered from the water pipe.  I drained the water from the basket twice as it brewed, giving me temp measurements in 1/3-pot increments.  The first 1/3 measured right at 180F, the second 1/3 climbed up to 188F, & the final 1/3 bounced around from 182F to 188F.  Obviously, this is lower than others at my same altitude are seeing (as referenced by Mercury3 in this post "Technivorm Moccamaster CD question-- "Is it hot enough for ya?"" & others I've read).

But, as mentioned in the same thread (above), the water only gets delivered when it reaches a hot enough boiling temp to push itself out of the chamber.  So I guess my questions are:
1) should I talk to Boyds about this?, &
2) given the boiling temps identified during my calibration, is there anything I can do about it anyway?

Thanks for helping me work thru my TVBTOCD.  This is much better than paying a therapist!

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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CraigA
Moderator
CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,208
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 2:51pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Hi Greg,

Welcome to the Coffeegeek forums! {;-D

Well, the TV brews @ 200F at the showerhead. The water falling from the showerarm will cool slightly & room temp coffee in the brew basket will absorb some of that heat & stratify also.

I see nothing wrong here as your temp in a preheated carafe should be approx 182 - 185F.
Please read Tom Owens (Owner of Sweet Maria's) thoughs on brew temp here please: http://sweetmarias.com/prod.technivorm.shtml#tvormthoughts

Scan down to "My final thoughts on the Technivorm:"

Quote: "We have had some feedback from folks who find the coffee brewed not hot enough in the Technivorms. There is a steep drop off once the water hits the grounds and then drops to the pot - that is to be expected. Testing the machines at our warehouse - I get the following temperatures: 195 to 205 degrees F at the brewhead; in the grounds, 160 degrees F; and 156 degrees F in the pot. I find 156 degrees too hot to actually taste anything - so I let it cool a bit. Some folks find this too cool - they are used to the coffee being heated on a hot plate above brewing temperature but I can't taste anything in a liquid that hot - so reheating the coffee does not make much sense for me. I know that some folks are used to coffee that hot though - that is what they are accustomed to. -Tom"

 
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rmongiovi
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Feb 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Ditting KR805
Drip: Technivorm; Bonavita...
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 3:04pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

I'm not sure if it's the TV, or if it's the CG forum itself, but I've noticed a lot of OCD here.

I've even considered taking advantage of the fact that the TV brew arm is metal (not optimal, imho) by adding a heating coil to it.  There are flat heating elements that could be attached to the bottom of the arm, which along with a simple potentiometer would add a truly awesome secondary heating element to the TV and guarantee that hot water got delivered to the brewing basket.
Roy
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CraigA
Moderator
CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,208
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

rmongiovi Said:

I'm not sure if it's the TV, or if it's the CG forum itself, but I've noticed a lot of OCD here.

Posted November 12, 2007 link

Yeah, a lot of us are obsessed here, lol! The brew head does provide water @ the proper SCAA brewing specs (195 - 205F, avg 200F) Roy., just like the BUNN home unit (200F water tank temp) I have listed in my profile. {;-)

 
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rmongiovi
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Feb 2006
Posts: 405
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Ditting KR805
Drip: Technivorm; Bonavita...
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 3:26pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

CraigA Said:

Yeah, a lot of us are obsessed here, lol! The brew head does provide water @ the proper SCAA brewing specs (195 - 205F, avg 200F) Roy., just like the BUNN home unit I have listed in my profile. {;-)

Posted November 12, 2007 link

I just want to know WHY they made it out of metal.  That's just a heat sink.  I've been looking for some plastic tubing with the same dimensions so I could make one out of an insulating material, but the internet has let me down.

I'm not obsessed.  I'm just extremely diligent.
Roy
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CraigA
Moderator
CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,208
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 3:39pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

rmongiovi Said:

I just want to know WHY they made it out of metal.  That's just a heat sink.  I've been looking for some plastic tubing with the same dimensions so I could make one out of an insulating material, but the internet has let me down.

Posted November 12, 2007 link

Maybe that is the way they want to control it. Brew a little hotter at the beginning as you can always loose a little heat with the heatsink or wicking effect, but difficult to add it back.

I'm not obsessed.

I didn't say you were.


I'm just extremely diligent.

I hear you there, me too!

 
http://twitter.com/CoffeegeekCraig
http://www.facebook.com/craig.andrews.169

Excellent coffee doesn't just happen!
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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 5:15pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Hi Craig, & thanks for the welcome!  I actually discovered CG a few years ago, when you crowned a Swedish tamper as "Best Of" one year.  Two years ago I was back to learn about which grinder to buy.  And this year I used you when my wife told me the Kelly green Krups (that she picked out) had to go.  That's when the whole TVBTOCD thing started.  Man, when they say ignorance is bliss, they ain't kidding!

Anyway, yes, I went thru all the reviews I could find before I ordered up my new KBTS.  CG, SM & CoffeeCrew all got read & re-read (& re-read) before I could convince myself that a $200 brewer was the way to go.  Before it arrived, I had SM's Tip Sheet printed out & waiting to be inserted into the TV's owner's manual.

I guess I'm just a little disappointed that the water temp directly out of the brewhead is so low.  It's definitely not at SCAA's 195-205.  Like I mentioned, I don't know that I could expect anything more at this altitude.  (Except for those few others that mention they're getting slightly higher temps at this elevation....)  Yes, it makes an excellent cup of very hot coffee.  I'm not looking for anything hotter to drink, just a slightly hotter brewing temp, since that's how the machine's advertised & one of the main reasons why I bought it.  (And even with boiling water preheating the carafe for 10 minutes, it only stays "drinking hot" for maybe 60-90 minutes.  Long enough, but definitely not the 4 hrs others mention.)  The other main deciding factor was the fully copper boiling chamber.  I've been wanting to get away from aluminum heating elements for the past few years, so I was ecstatic when I learned about TV's copper chamber.  Even with the less-than-advertised brew temps I'm getting, I'll still keep my KBTS for the copper element & lack of a hot plate.

Roy, I agree that the water pipe is more form than function, as far as thermal conductivity goes.  Rather than installing a secondary heating element, I'd recommend simply insulating the delivery pipe.  Just use something that won't melt at 200F & won't flake off into the liquid.  That should retain most of the heat loss from the brewpipe, even it does royally screw up the Euro aesthetic.

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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CraigA
Moderator
CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,208
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Mon Nov 12, 2007, 5:30pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

I looked to see if Technivorm makes or offers a high altitude brewer, & I didn't see any. I know that BUNN does though, although that's no help..

 
http://twitter.com/CoffeegeekCraig
http://www.facebook.com/craig.andrews.169

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nemoorellc
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 84
Location: Cincinnati
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Scale: Uber 6kg
Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso
Drip: Bunn CW15-TC
Posted Tue Nov 13, 2007, 6:39pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Greg,

Are you seeing brew times consistent with most TV's.  As a Bunn owner, I don't know what "typical" is for the TV; however, if your brew cycle is taking too long, maybe the heating element isn't doing it's job properly.  If the localized boiling process takes too long (due to low input heat), then you water has more time to cool as it flows up the plastic tube and through the metal spray bar.   Also, what is your starting point water temperature?  As the water flows counterflow through that vertical tube, the water in the tank acts as a heat sink.  To a certain degree, TV has taken this into consideration, but if your using 40F mountain water, that might be lower than what the unit's heat transfer is based on, again
lowering your output temperature.

To you point, the water should be coming out of the spray bar at the desired temperature, which for your altitute is probably in the 190F range.

You definitely should call Boyds to engage them as the TV rep.  If your unit is not working right, you should get another one.

Nathan
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Bergie
Senior Member


Joined: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 384
Location: So. Cal.
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Bialetti stovetop
Grinder: Capresso Infinity
Vac Pot: Yama,Cory,
Drip: Technivorm,KMB
Posted Tue Nov 13, 2007, 8:07pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Eiron Said:

Hi all,

Yet another question/posting on lower-than-expected brew temps from a new Technivorm.  I've searched the archives & read quite a few threads on the subject, so I realize I'm not breaking any new ground with my confusion.

I got my KBTS (graphite!) just over a week ago.  I already had two kitchen thermometers on hand (one glass candy & one metal meat), but they were both reading very low brew temps (in the 160F to 165F range).  So, I bought a new metal spike thermometer just for testing brew temps (they really ought to include one with each brewer!), & proceeded to calibrate it.

For the low end, a glass of refrigerated water with ice cubes measured 33F.  For the high end I used a Bodum Curl cordless electric water kettle.  Since I live at approximately 5,000' elevation (just north of Denver, CO), water tends to boil right around 203F (+/-1F, depending on what the barometer reads).  The thermometer came with a slipcase that doubles as a handle, so I was able to hold it well into the water without getting scalded.  At about 150F the water began a "contained" boil, where large bubbles would rise but not break the surface.  True boiling began around 160F, & the thermometer quickly rose to 190F.  After quite a while (maybe 30 seconds?  maybe longer?) of vigorous boiling, the temp finally reached 203F.  I feel the thermometer is reasonably accurate for testing brew temp.

Now, on to the KBTS.  I filled the reservoir with a full liter (34 oz) of filtered water from the tap, closed the basket drain & turned on the machine.  I held the thermometer so that the tip was just off the Swissgold filter bottom.  This allowed me to measure the water coming out of the showerhead but also keep the temp from fluctuating during "boiling surges" being delivered from the water pipe.  I drained the water from the basket twice as it brewed, giving me temp measurements in 1/3-pot increments.  The first 1/3 measured right at 180F, the second 1/3 climbed up to 188F, & the final 1/3 bounced around from 182F to 188F.  Obviously, this is lower than others at my same altitude are seeing (as referenced by Mercury3 in this post "Technivorm Moccamaster CD question-- "Is it hot enough for ya?"" & others I've read).

But, as mentioned in the same thread (above), the water only gets delivered when it reaches a hot enough boiling temp to push itself out of the chamber.  So I guess my questions are:
1) should I talk to Boyds about this?, &
2) given the boiling temps identified during my calibration, is there anything I can do about it anyway?

Thanks for helping me work thru my TVBTOCD.  This is much better than paying a therapist!

Posted November 12, 2007 link

 Greg:
 As a fellow compulsive,I think you will forgive my comments. I know you're thinking, "can it be better?"
 No,it probably can't.
 (1) The temp in your basket is close to typical (at sea level,about 182).
 (2) Drop the crap about measuring temp. from the brewhead--do it--it works. Your temp will probably be a bit below the usual 201-203---shouldn't hurt anything--still a great cup of drip.
  (3) If I were not a fellow compulsive,I'd say that since you are apparently getting a fine brew,why complain? Indeed,I went through your numbers at first.
 You have a wonderful machine--enjoy it.
             
   You have a wonderul machine. Use it,and enjoy it.
                                            Regards,
                                             Barry
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