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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Wed Nov 14, 2007, 2:19pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Hi Nathan, I haven't actually timed the brew cycle.  It appears to be taking about as long (maybe slightly less) to brew a full 34 oz pot as it did to brew 24 oz in the Krups auto drip.  Also, I've discovered that, if I'm brewing a full pot, I can't close the filter cone to let it steep & then open it to the midway setting.  The hot water delivery is too quick & the half open drip is slow enough that it completely fills the cone during the brew cycle.  I can steep it on a 3/5 pot (20 oz) or less, but not on a full pot.

This time of year, the starting point water temp is usually around 70F.  I have a solid carbon block filter under the counter & the space gets warmed by the distribution of our forced air heating.  I don't usually run the filter faucet long enough to purge the entire filter housing of tepid water before I start filling up the TV's reservoir.

If you think that the 190F range is to be expected, then I feel I'm probably about as close as I'm going to get at 188F.  Well, at least as much as I can tell with the rudimentary analog thermometer I've got.

Barry, thanks for the anal-ysis. :-)  Yeah, I emailed TV & got a cool reply (with pictures!) about how their temp measuring procedure is set up.  They use a thermocouple strapped into a small catch cup, then suspend the whole shebang directly under the (single) brewpipe opening.  Unlike my metal spike thermometer under the nine hole brewpipe, the thermocouple gets completely submerged by all of the boiling water immediately as it flows out of the brewpipe.  Even though I've "calibrated" my analog thermometer, there's obviously some lag & probably some inaccuracy.

I wasn't intending for it sound like a complaint.  I was looking more for some reassurance that I'm getting expected brew temps at my altitude.  It took more than 30 seconds for my thermometer to read 203F inside the kettle.  I don't expect the TV to contain rapidly boiling water for 30 seconds before releasing it into the filter cone.  Also, since "normal" boiling in the kettle took place between 160F-190F, I now realize that's the range I should expect boiling water to force itself out of the TV's boiling chamber.  I'm content with that.

Of course I love my new machine!  I love the fact that it's purpose-built for doing one thing as well as it can: automating (semi-automating?) drip coffee brewing.  My mom used a Melitta cone for probably two decades.  I seriously considered buying a cone, a thermal carafe & a copper kettle.  That put me more than 1/2 way to the cost of the TV before I decided that I really didn't want to do that every time I made coffee.  Of course, the TV incorporates all of the items I was going to assemble, & brews faster than I could simply boil water on the stove.  I love the unique look of the contraption.  To me, the whole intent, design & execution is very similar to the 1990 Saab 900 car I drive to work every day & refuse to give up:
Plenty of power where you need it & not where it's wasted.
Solid construction for lifetime ownership.
No distracting "frills" that make it less reliable.
Logical design with the sole purpose of providing the highest quality operating experience to the owner.

Ah, geek love...  it's a beautiful thing. :-D

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
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AhPook
Senior Member


Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 2
Location: Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Nov 15, 2007, 11:21am
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Oh great!  Something else to obsese over.  I'm not alone! :D

I've been researching coffee makers, on this fine site, this morning.  Looks like a TV is in my future.

I guess I could do some water boiling tests, as I'm northwest of Eiron and about 8500'. :)

Tom
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rmongiovi
Senior Member


Joined: 7 Feb 2006
Posts: 406
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Ditting KR805
Drip: Technivorm; Bonavita...
Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Thu Nov 15, 2007, 2:08pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

I wonder what it would take to build a pressurized hood for my coffee maker so that I could brew in a sea level environment (or maybe slightly above!)?
Roy
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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Sun Mar 9, 2008, 1:28pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Just wanted to provide an update for past & future reference.  I borrowed a friend's digital meter & thermocouple to use on my post-Christmas Quick Mill espresso machine purchase & decided I might as well hook up the Technivorm while I'm at it.

When I emailed the factory about how I should be measuring brew temp, they were kind enough to email back some pictures of what they do.  One of their comments was that they keep the temp probe as small as possible so that it can be completely covered by brew water.  Along with this requirement, they also keep the volume of measured water small so that they always have newly heated water running past the thermocouple.  This is aided by their use of the original single-hole brew pipe.  When I ran my earlier temp measurements I was using an analog spike-style thermometer which leaves a lot of temp-sensitive surface exposed to cooling air, & is nearly impossible to completely cover with a small volume of continuously brewing water from my nine hole brew pipe.

Using their pictures as a guide, I set up my KBTS similarly to what Technivorm has done in their lab.  I used the very bottom of a styrofoam cup & poked a small hole into the side of the base with a sewing needle.  I then pushed the thermocouple (basically, a tinned wire lead with plastic covering/insulation) into the hole so that about 1/4" to 3/8" was sticking out inside the cup.  Next, I positioned the cup so that it would catch water from all nine holes simultaneously & used a rubber band to keep it in place.

Of course, I did run a calibration on the digital setup.  A glass of refrigerated water filled with 70% ice cubes measured 32F, while my Bodum electric kettle measured a full boil at 199F (the maximum on the meter).

Since the water is pushed up from the reservoir by boiling, it tends to flow in "waves" rather than continuously.  The first wave, then, is actually pushing out (& mixing with) the unheated water already at the top of the delivery column.  Keeping this process in mind, here are the new temps I've recorded with my factory/lab setup:

1st wave: 155F
2nd wave: 180F
3rd wave:  190F
4th wave:  194F
5th wave:  196F
6th wave:  198F
The temp held here until, at the very end of the 1/2 liter of water I had put in the reservoir, it hit 199F.

This "new" data doesn't change my mind at all about my Technivorm, since I was already ecstatic about getting a wonderful brewer from a great company.  (Even more so since I ran my thermal carafe pre-heating test a while back.)  I mean, sure, I'm glad to know it's doing its job, but how much better than "perfect!" do I really need?  Anyway, that's the latest.  Thanks for listening!

-Greg

Eiron: KBTS_Setup_sm.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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jonstrong
Senior Member
jonstrong
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 64
Location: New Jersey
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso
Drip: Newco OCS-12
Posted Sun Mar 16, 2008, 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

I've never been in an opium den, but in my imagination, this is about what it would be like...Only thing wrong with this image is that I usually wind up sitting here, reading and posting late at night...while my Newco is sitting on the counter in my kitchen, stone cold and off until morning. If I really wanted to capture the crack-house feel, there should be a cup of fresh brewed "grumpy monkey", "rocket blend" or plain ol' summatran sitting under my nose, with the steam wafting up in my face as I type. I must get my timing on all of this down better to make sure the experience is complete!

I'm intrigued that your water gets hotter as the cycle progresses. That's a great testimony to the massive heat coil in the TV - running water through it doesn't cool it down. But it *does* seem to be taking a while to heat up in the first place.

This may be totally off the wall...but have you ever checked the voltage level at your outlet? I was amazed at how this could vary in different towns, houses, etc., despite "standards". Just wondering if there's a low voltage condition that's causing the TV to heat up more slowly? If it's below standard, your electric utility should address the problem. No idea about the likelihood of this - but I generally like to consider all possibilities when playing detective.

 
- Jon

www.stronggroup.com
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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Tue Mar 25, 2008, 12:39pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

LOL, hi Jon!  Yeah, if I were drinking coffee while posting I'd never sleep.  It's only when I'm having trouble understanding my own sentences that I realize I should've been in bed two hours earlier....

As to your query, the water's not actually getting hotter.  The base of the reservoir sits above the boiler chamber (picture a coffee can sitting on top of a soda can), with the delivery pipe perched above the reservoir (picture a bendi-straw sticking out of the soda can & sticking up higher than the top of the coffee can).  When you fill it, the water height in the delivery pipe equalizes to the same height as the water in the reservoir.  That means there's a few ounces of cold water already past the boiler chamber when you start it up.  These few ounces are pushed out when the water starts to boil, but since they're beyond the boiler they don't get heated directly & instead get mixed with the new hot water bubbling out of the boiler chamber.  It just means it takes a few boils to purge all the not-directly-heated-by-the-coil water.

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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jonstrong
Senior Member
jonstrong
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Posts: 64
Location: New Jersey
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Baratza Virtuoso
Drip: Newco OCS-12
Posted Tue Mar 25, 2008, 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Thanks Greg...I see now re: the heat waves (so to speak). I actually went back and re-read your lab experiment post, and probably could have made more sense of it had it read it closely the first time! Oh well...see what I mean about not having coffee in front of me when carousing on Coffee Geek?

Sounds like your water is pretty close to the magic temperature. I'd be curious to see what other TV owners would find if they measured temperature the same way you did. Maybe others can chime in on this? (I imagine this might also be a case when the "search" facility proves useful -- I'm acknowledging this up front before we're scolded about not using it!).

Tonight is one of those nights when I REALLY wish I had a nice hot cup in front of me. I left the house for work around 7 this morning, it's about 8:45pm now, and I have to get started on some work I owe an old client - and get it done before I can sleep tonight. Coffee would be lovely now, except that I have to get up for my *real* job again tomorrow morning at 6.

*sigh*

Oh well. I'll think about my morning coffee, and hope those good thoughts keep me going through the night...

Also: BTW - I read your thread on pre-heating the thermal carafe with interest. I've taken the time to measure the water temperature as it exits the Newco OCS-12 shower head over the grounds, but haven't yet done the kind of measurements in the carafe that you have. Whether it's superstitious behavior or not I can't say with certainty, but what my subjective experience suggests the following:

- when I first brew a pot with the OCS-12, the coffee I pour immediately after is too hot to drink until it has had a few minutes to cool (unless I add milk).

- I can't give you even a semi-accurate time measure, but I believe that, when I pre-heat the carafe before brewing into it, the coffee stays at a good drinking temperature significantly longer while in the carafe, and of course this makes sense. Depending on the number of people sharing a pot, this might not be significant, but my wife usually winds up with the last cup (I'm usually at my office by then), and if I pre-heat the carafe the coffee is still hot when she pours it. If I don't...she seems to wind up with luke warm coffee.

I haven't gone to the trouble of boiling water for this purpose yet. I fill the carafe initially with filtered, cold, tap water, which I then pour into the brewer. Then I switch the water filter off, run hot water at full blast and let it flood the carafe. I tend to keep the household hot water tank cranked up pretty high, so our hot tap water tends to be very hot -- not anywhere near boiling, of course, but the metal part of the carafe is generally too hot to hold onto after this, and the inside of the carafe is at *least* as hot as the exterior. Seems to do the trick for me.

I'm definitely falling into a stylized ritual with the various steps I run through each morning. Pretty strange when I stop to think about that...

 
- Jon

www.stronggroup.com
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scalla
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 85
Location: Tucson, AZ, US
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Silvia
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E, Rocky DL
Vac Pot: Kirby
Drip: TV Moccamaster thermo
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Tue Mar 25, 2008, 8:56pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Man have I found the right crowd.

I have been completely happy with my Braun Flavorselect for the past few years. As soon as I read that the water needs to be close to 200F to "properly" brew I started to wonder. Of course I picked up a thermometer from the grocery store and checked the temp at the brew head. It started out at 140F and worked its way up to 150F.

Sweet. I have a perfect reason to spend $250 on  a new coffee maker.

New TV arrives last night and what is the first thing I do? Yes, you guessed it, I check the brew-head temp. It reads around 160F...not good. I let the filter basket fill up a bit (no coffee or filter) and get around 180. I notice the more submerged my high-end thermometer ($5.95 on sale) the higher the reading. After reading this thread tonight I checked the thermometer in a pan of boiling water (~2k feet ASL). 160F with about 1" in the water. Put it directly on the bottom of the pan and I get 190F. The obvious lesson for me was that the measurement device needs to be up to the level of the equipment being tested.

So the real question is whats the "best" thermometer I can get?

As an aside, the TV makes pretty decent coffee too.
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
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Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
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Posted Tue Mar 25, 2008, 9:20pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Sorry Dan,

All your testing with a cheap uncalibrated thermometer doesn't amount to anything worthwhile & will only serve to frustrate you more, you need accurate measuring equipment...

What I use below with a K type thermocouple.

CraigA: 0520052_450_CC_d966.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
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Eiron
Senior Member
Eiron
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 343
Location: Loveland, Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill 0930
Grinder: Quick Mill 031,...
Drip: TechniVorm KBTS
Roaster: Behmor 1600, Presto Poplite
Posted Sun Mar 30, 2008, 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Technivorm causes Brew Temperature Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (TVBTOCD)?
 

Hi scalla, I feel your OCD pain! :-D  Fluke true RMS multimeters are generally considered to be the "best," but definitely overkill for measuring temp.  The Extech I borrowed seems like a nice unit.  The guy I borrowed it from said it's more robust than some of the other low-cost brands, but I think that depends on which Extech model you get.  Some are rated for drops onto floors & some are not.

Since you're not measuring "involve non-linear loads" (as identified from a Fluke application notes article), you don't need to spend the extra for a true RMS meter.  Right now, Enco's got a basic Extech unit w/temp on sale for $42.  That would be the "best buy" if you want a K-type thermocouple digital thermometer.

Have fun!

-Greg

 
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..."
- my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence

Good, affordable espresso: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/355707
Coffee's hot enough for OCD: www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/330079
Personal & global health: http://www.broomfieldenterprise.com/ci_12802509
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