JeffPersson Senior Member Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 120 Location: Goodyear, AZ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bialetti Moka Pot Grinder: LaSanMarco SM-90A Vac Pot: Yama 8-cup Drip: VP17-2 Roaster: Behmor 1600 & Poppery I
Posted Sat Jun 28, 2008, 10:49am Subject: Preheating Water Over Extracts my Vacpot
I've had my Yama 8-cup for about a week now and have used it five or six times. The first few times I made it by putting the water directly into the Yama to heat until it brewed the coffee. The last two times I've made it I preheated the water as recommended in the guide and the coffee has come out bitter. I believe I know the reason for this and want to see if I'm on the right track to debugging it.
I noticed with the water preheated in a kettle that after filling the pot and putting the top on the water begins to kick up after 3 or 4 seconds. After this initial kickup it seems to stall for a couple minutes while the burner the pot is on catches up in temp to keep the water heating and the vapor expanding to push the rest of the water up.
This means half the water is steeping for a good 4 to 5 minutes before the rest of the water moves to the top section for it's 70 sec steep. This means half the pot is way over extracted.
My stove is one of those glasstop stoves. I've used the vacpot both with and without the wire grill that comes with it and found no difference. Obviously I don't want to start heating the pot while empty, so would I be better off waiting a minute or two after pouring the hot water in before putting the top section on? Just so the burner and water have a chance to bring the glass to the right temp before it starts kicking up the water?
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On another topic, is there a purpose to washing the cloth filters with oxyclean other than the looks of a brown filter? Will a well-rinsed filter work the same as an oxycleaned one and just not be as pretty or is there a functional difference too?
Posted Sat Jun 28, 2008, 11:20am Subject: Re: Preheating Water Over Extracts my Vacpot
JeffPersson Said:
I noticed with the water preheated in a kettle that after filling the pot and putting the top on the water begins to kick up after 3 or 4 seconds. After this initial kickup it seems to stall for a couple minutes while the burner the pot is on catches up in temp to keep the water heating and the vapor expanding to push the rest of the water up.
Similar setup (5-cup Yama plus glass top stove), but I haven't noticed this. Quick fix: add the coffee only after all the water has migrated north. Give it a quick stir for total immersion and time your extraction as usual. Recommended regardless of whether you preheat the water.
Tcampbells Senior Member Joined: 3 Jan 2008 Posts: 92 Location: Taiwan Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia / Stove top... Grinder: Rancilio Rocky / Solis 166 Vac Pot: Hario 3 cup Siphon Drip: Braun 4 Cup classic Roaster: My local Organic coffee...
Posted Sat Jun 28, 2008, 9:28pm Subject: Re: Preheating Water Over Extracts my Vacpot
I agree with the other poster. Add the coffee only after all the water has gone up. Not before. Adding before with preheated water often adds a "burnt" overextracted taste to the coffee as some of it is steeping for a great deal longer then the rest of it. As well, the initial rise of hotwater is too hot for most roasts of coffee I use, so I need to manage the water temperature more.
I have noticed the same problem so you aren't alone.
I preheat the water to just short of boiling, which may be the reason I haven't observed this stalling. That allows the stove to finish heating the water before it starts going north.
_dt_ Senior Member Joined: 12 May 2002 Posts: 80 Location: Brossard, QC Canada Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Porkert Manual Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau Drip: AeroPress Roaster: FreshRoast Plus 8
Posted Sun Jun 29, 2008, 3:06am Subject: Re: Preheating Water Over Extracts my Vacpot
I think it silly to preheat water in a separate kettle for a stove top vacpot. The reason to use a separate kettle is when you use a spirit lamp so you won't have to wait 20 min+ before the water heat up. But a stove top should provide plenty of heat so why use a kettle at all? Make no sence to me. So for stove top "pre"-heat water in the lower globe not a separate kettle.
When we say preheat we mean we heat the lower globe until it reach a desired temperature before assemling the upper globe. Unless there is something else I don't understand
Cheers
Dan.
BTW I also put my coffee in after the water has gone up but then I use a hario with spirit lamp so my water is preheat on a 24/7 hot put but direct flame don't suffer from heat lag and I still wait till near boiling since in my apparatus the water cool down when going upstair going at ~200 F when the water reach the top.
This depends on the burner and the vac pot. My glasstop stove does not have an exact match to the little Yama's glass bottom, so water heats more quickly and efficiently in my electric kettle. Silly or not, even with the heat diffuser, I prefer to limit the amount of time that the vac pot is exposed to direct stovetop heat. These suckers are fragile enough w/o any additional stress on the glass and plastic.
JeffPersson Senior Member Joined: 11 May 2008 Posts: 120 Location: Goodyear, AZ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Bialetti Moka Pot Grinder: LaSanMarco SM-90A Vac Pot: Yama 8-cup Drip: VP17-2 Roaster: Behmor 1600 & Poppery I
Posted Sun Jun 29, 2008, 8:15am Subject: Re: Preheating Water Over Extracts my Vacpot
I'll try the approach of adding the coffee after the water kicks up, but I don't see a point in heating the water in the bottom part with the top off since covering a pot of water will make it heat faster.
Tcampbells Senior Member Joined: 3 Jan 2008 Posts: 92 Location: Taiwan Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia / Stove top... Grinder: Rancilio Rocky / Solis 166 Vac Pot: Hario 3 cup Siphon Drip: Braun 4 Cup classic Roaster: My local Organic coffee...
Posted Sun Jun 29, 2008, 9:14am Subject: Re: Preheating Water Over Extracts my Vacpot
JeffPersson Said:
I'll try the approach of adding the coffee after the water kicks up, but I don't see a point in heating the water in the bottom part with the top off since covering a pot of water will make it heat faster.
The only reason to heat the bottom with the top off is if you add the coffee to the top part before you connect the top and bottom. That way within a few second of connecting the top, the water will start to rise and the steeping begins. Approx 60 seconds after all the water has rinse the steeping time is complete.
The other method is to connect the top and bottom and allow the water to fully come to the top part. The when the temperature stabailizes and the water isn't "bubbling from the air" add the coffee and steep. for X seconds. (depending upon your grind and preference)
JeffPersson Said:
On another topic, is there a purpose to washing the cloth filters with oxyclean other than the looks of a brown filter? Will a well-rinsed filter work the same as an oxycleaned one and just not be as pretty or is there a functional difference too?
the Oxoclean also removes the oil and old coffee residue better then the well-rinsed filter and thus to many gives a better taste. Plus makes it look better when you use method 2, otherwise the water in the top part will have a slight brownings color. Personally I just added boiled water after rinsing it and all is fine. I also replace the filters often though as they are easy to purchase and cheap
It depend on the heat source. If it's strong enough it matter less.
With my hario with alcholol burner. If I put the upper globe when the lower globe is at 180F. it continue heating until 190 and it stay there, If I put the upper globe at 210 it goes down to 200 and stay there. Starting from cold water it start to go up at about 90F and when it's all up it's about 170F. I just did the test with water only. But I didn't stay beside to watch the whole process but the water was at 170F and all upstaire when I came back to check. Since I wasn't there the whole time and I lefted alone for a while, it may have been even lower.
So you don't want to steep your coffee in that low temp. Maybe you do depend on your taste but not very good according to mine :-)
But like I said if the stove is strong enough it's may be able to make everything 200F even starting from cold fully assemble.
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