Posted Fri Jan 21, 2011, 9:28am Subject: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
I have some friends that own Keurig system single cup brewers. They are interested in sampling some of my own roasted coffee.
I started looking at the specs on the machine, how it works, etc., and found some curious things about it.
First, I am pretty much a subscriber to the 10g coffee:6oz water ratio, adjusting from there only after achieving consistently brewed coffee using grind level and contact time.
I have used my aeropress for varying brews, and find that (for me) a fairly fine grind, about 8-9 grams coffee and 200º (just off boil) 4oz water makes a really nice starting point, contact time about 35 seconds and then a 20-30 second press. Top off with a couple oz hot water for more normal strength coffee.
The Keurig machine seems fairly simple. Approx 8g of ground coffee is in one K-cup. Most machines have 4oz, 6oz, 10oz and some go to 12oz cups.
Come again?
Observing the machine in action, the only change I see is that the larger cups simply put more hot water through the same amount of coffee. Smaller cups take less time to "brew" than larger cups. It isn't particularly high pressure. 6oz (I didn't measure, just estimate) is about 20-30 seconds, and the grind inside one of the K-cups is noticeably finer than auto drip but certainly NOT espresso.
I find the larger cups somewhat bitter and what I'd call "overextracted" but the K-faithful call "good, strong coffee."
But then they like my "magic" coffee better (hence the reason they want to try my coffee).
So, if brewing a good cup of coffee means - getting the ratio of coffee to water right, -then putting proper temperature water -through that correct ratio -so it is in contact with the grounds for the appropriate time for the grind level
how can a Keurig use a set amount of grounds and vary only the contact time to make a larger cup of coffee?
Am I missing something?
In the end, I think I'll see if they will buy one of the solofil K-cups and I'll help them figure out the grind for 10g coffee and use the 6oz setting (if too strong, then Americano the thing to your desired strength).
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri Jan 21, 2011, 10:34am Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
You're not missing anything. It just puts more water through the same amount of coffee. It produces fast easy coffee on demand, that's better than the communal pot of folgers that's been baking for a couple of hours on the hotplate. That's it's draw. It doesn't use magic, and it doesn't make a great cup of coffee. To me it's barely acceptable and weak even at it's strongest/smallest setting.
Your aeropress produces coffee that's dramatically better, and I have a feeling even with kcups you can fill with good quality freshly ground beans, you'll be disappointed. Your friends will likely be fine with it, as they're drinking (and liking) the prepackaged kcups. One thing to consider is how the keurig or kcup is going to deal with bloom created from fresh grinds...?
Posted Fri Jan 21, 2011, 12:52pm Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
Sorry, my bad. I checked a packet of Green Mountain Breakfast Blend or something like that, and thought it was 8g, but you're probably right.
I think the grounds lose a gram after use (once dried and weighed) so I might be remembering post-use measurements.
It's hard to pry unused k-cups out of people's hands, they're on the order of $0.40 to $0.65 each! I wanted 10 of them to empty and measure (so I could get better averaged discretion with my food scale), and they said "man, that's FIVE BUCKS of coffee wasted!".
But, my counter argument is that they SHOULD be able to be used straight in an aeropress... so when I'm done the coffee isn't wasted, just delayed (and probably brewed better) :-)
The cost, incidentally, is also another motivation for using your own coffee. The economics are $4.00/lb for really decent green coffee, roasted to 12 1/2 - 13 oz (call it 355g roasted on the low end) yielding about 35 decent full body cups of coffee extracted from 10g/cup - or about 12 cents a cup (including the 10 cents of electricity to roast a batch). Of course, if you count the labor time involved, the equation blows up - it takes an hour's worth of labor from start to cleanup for a lb... but that's the joy of a hobby - you don't count the time you use doing it!
;)
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri Jan 21, 2011, 5:18pm Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
No worries - I looked at a box of 24 and divided the gram weight by 24. It probably varies from flavor to flavor. I agree the format is one of the more expensive ways to brew a cup of coffee. The time cost you do not count when roasting for fun is the very thing most Keurig users are really paying for - speed and convenience. The system is fast, and for most the results are completely acceptable.
If you have them in the cross hairs already with your home roasting success, maybe suggesting a CCD or French press for the times they are not in a hurry will start them down the path towards becoming coffeegeeks themselves.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Posted Tue Jan 25, 2011, 7:22am Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
Measured Jet Fuel (very bold) and Newman's Organic Bold.
All packets measure on average 14.6g, and contain on average 11g of coffee. The cup average weight is 3.6 g.
These are both bold coffees.
Grind is much finer than French Press (coarse), and finer than drip (medium). I'd call it fine grind but not super fine. About what I target for my Aeropress.
Jet Fuel and Newman's Organic aroma is very dark roasted coffee - that's it. Almost no discernible difference between the two. In fact, both of these coffees when brewed in a Keurig are pretty much along the lines of a charbuck's sumatra or caffe Verona (maybe a touch less smoke/creosote). Almost no bean flavor, it's all overwhelmed by the roast - like any french roast you'd encounter. Mild acidity, no brightness, no other major notes except a touch of hi-percent cocoa/baking chocolate, and fairly heavy body with a slightly sour and bitter aftertaste. I get an overall impression of flatness, or "old coffee" which I assume is staleness.
When removed from the k-cup and brewed with the aeropress, it's slightly improved, smoother with a bit less smoke and bitterness, but still inferior to any of the other coffees I've made or roasted myself (even my mistakes). The flavor profile is still on the flat side, no improvement or hint of brightness.
I'll analyze the Italian Roast next, initial weights are 14.2g/cup, 10.6g of coffee per cup estimated.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Wed Jan 26, 2011, 8:07am Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
Keurig Italian Roast Xtra Bold K-cup.
11.2 g coffee in 3.1g cup. Grind is identical to the other two I measured yesterday (fine). Does well for pot coffee, actually (95g/60 oz in a Bunn). This stuff is a very dark roast with decent aroma, typical Italian roast flavor (moderate smoke and roast overwhelming any bean flavor) and I didn't sample it from a Keurig so I have no reference to how it comes out of the Keurig.
I think that a 10g in a decent fine grind would work well for a Keurig for a 6 oz cup.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:18pm Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
Just checked some "Folgers Black Silk" K-cups.
These machines are becoming ubiquitous - and since many know my enthusiasmknowledgeobsession addiction with coffee, everyone assumes that I think the brewer is the greatest coffee maker ever.
Convenient as heck. Quality coffee? Not a chance.
For these pods, they consist of 9.33g of coffee in a 3.01g cup/filter. Grind level was somewhere around Ditting 4 or so.
I have found measurements of friend's K-cup brews (some seem to taste quite weak for ~12.5g pods, to very strong but smoky and underdeveloped for 15g pods) at calculated underextraction.
Approximate 5 1/2oz cup (about 151g) made from one of the folgers was an abysmal 1.05% strength. The 8 or 10oz settings tasted like brown water.
Tea made from these things? Also extremely weak. Good tea does not come from a 1 minute contact time.
Only the heavier dosed coffee pods seem to be decent for overall strength, but again underextracted.
I did go ahead and make a CCD brew of the grounds from three of the pods, properly extracted. Flavor profile was quite straightforward Folgers with a heavy smoky hit and finish, with an aftertaste that went really long. There was a slight tinge of staleness and some very faint burnt rubber.
Wife agreed - not good, not good at all. She forbade me from ever getting a k-cup brewer (LOL, not that I was ever considering it).
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
BravoRomeo Senior Member Joined: 23 Sep 2003 Posts: 8 Location: Everett Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: WEGA Mininova Grinder: Magister M12A Vac Pot: Aeropress Drip: Technivorm Roaster: Hot Air Popper
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 12:52pm Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
I gave my sister an Aeropress and a bag of fresh, locally roasted beans. She already had an old grinder stashed away (Solis Maestro). She's now a convert from her old Keurig, which went back to Costco for a full refund. The Keurig made weak, expensive coffee, created quite a bit of non-recyclable waste, and took up a huge chunk of countertop. I found the UI terrible with all of its blinking blue lights and confusing buttons to select cup size.
She found the Aeropress easy enough to use, kind of fun in its own way, uses zero counter-space, and makes a very enjoyable cup. She was often using the refillable K-cup in her Keurig. The AP is considerably easier to use and clean up after.
For Keurig friends who are interested in sampling your own home-roast, include an Aeropress or a pour-over cone and show them how to use it. I've given away three or four APs now, and they are often greatly appreciated. Even if you have to pre-grind your coffee for them, at least it is a start.
Posted Sun Oct 14, 2012, 8:40pm Subject: Re: Keurig - any insight on how they work?
You may want to consider one of the refillable k-cups. I have been using a solofill for the last couple of weeks and have been getting good results (similar to a simple melita filter with more body). Grind: very fine, near espresso, amount: fill coffee is near the max line of the solofill, brew: 6 oz.
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