There are lots of TechniVorm threads here in the Machines and Brewing Methods forum (& quite a few in the Questions and Answers forum as well), but it may be easiest just to start a new one.
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..." - my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence
FYI, saw that Venia Coffee is giving away a Bonavita Thermal. Might be a good chance to get one if you don't want to buy it, or convince the wife to drop 150 bones on a coffee maker.
As for an update on the one I bought, it has been about a month and it is used daily. By wife loves having it as she isn't as into the odd brewing methods I have made her put up with (she just wants to push a button in the morning). I have continually been surprised when I take my first morning sip, in a good way. We only brew what we are going to drink , so having the glass model has worked well for us. I did leave a pot on to "simmer" for about half and hour to see what it would do to the coffee...it wasn't over hot as most drip coffee makers do. The coffee did loose something after 30 minutes, most of the nuances were muted (Ethiopia Yirga Cheffe), but overall it wasn't a bad as I expected.
Very cool! Sounds like you like yours as much as I like mine. Thanks for the link too - I considered entering the contest but decided not to stand in the way of of someone else's happiness - these are excellent brewers!
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
My requirements for a new brewer (in no particular order of importance) were: 1) No superfluous electronics; On/Off only is preferred. 2) No aluminum-contact brewing components; copper brewing components preferred. 3) Minimal plastics contact. 4) Thermal carafe. 5) Avoid Chinese-made as much as practical. 6) As durable/long-life of a product as possible to reduce replacement waste. 7) "Green" manufacturing to reduce fabrication waste.
I had two Braun drip brewers prior to this, each one lasting about 10 yrs. When the 2nd one died, I was disappointed that I had to keep replacing this supposed premium brewer & so I gave up & started using a "free" Krups/Gevalia brewer. Unfortunately, after 2 yrs of use my wife was tired of the color (Kelly Green; she picked it!) & she demanded I replace it. She was pushing for me to get any of the "nice" $100 stainless machines from a department store, since they looked good (for her). She promoted all of the timers/beepers/settings they had as an "upgrade" to the lowly Krups, but my experience was/is that they only offer more things to break. I had found the TechniVorm brewers, but couldn't justify their high price.
As I mentioned (in your other thread), this led me to returning to a simple Melitta pour-over. Keeping my brewer "requirements" in mind, I priced out a ceramic filter cone, a nice Zojiroshi thermal carafe, & a nice copper kettle. At that time, the total price of these three items was just under $200. The price of the KBTS was around $220 (I think). At that point, I considered the convenience of an automatic brewer to be worth more than the slight cost advantage of my "premium manual" pour-over setup. The only thing I was losing with the TechniVorm was complete avoidance of plastics contact, but the materials the company chose to use are better than those of any other brewer I know of.
As illustrated here, the TechniVorm is a commercial-grade machine dressed in "home decor" apparel. If Bunn made a home machine to the standards of their commercial machines, it would most likely cost even more than the TechniVorms do. Here's a link that shows some of TechniVorm's commercial brewers, just so others can see their range of skill & experience. Obviously, there's no direct comparative information available on the Bonavita. It's quite possible that it also uses a copper boiling chamber, heavy-duty build utilizing redundant safety fuses, premium plastics, and "green" manufacturing practices. I don't know, & other than Will_H's unsupported comment on the aluminum heating element, I haven't seen any information presented to either support or refute the concerns I had when I bought my KBTS.
We have the same criteria (except for green). How are the BV & TV different in terms of plastic- less total plastic contact, or it's the same amount of contact & it's just that the TV uses higher quality plastic? Also, I notice you don't list showerhead dispersal- a nonfactor between these two (I've read the BV actually has the edge in this regard)?
I really wanted a US made Bunn, but I'd rather not have one that keeps water hot ALL the time, & they start at $250, which puts me in TV territory. With the Bonavita, I'm looking at made in china anyway, tough to justify over the $50 also certified bunn phase brew (except like you i prefer no timers & lcd's, just simple on/off). I just don't know if simplicity & looks are worth 2 1/2 times the price, as 2x as much from BV to TV is easier to justify for me, because of the TV's copper coil, not MIC, less plastic(?)- but NOT if its showerhead doesn't disperse as well, & you need to stir it.
... How are the BV & TV different in terms of plastic- less total plastic contact, or it's the same amount of contact & it's just that the TV uses higher quality plastic? Also, I notice you don't list showerhead dispersal- a nonfactor between these two (I've read the BV actually has the edge in this regard)?
TV plastic is the cheesy looking part of the brewer - nice materials until you hit that $2.99 style plastic filter cone...
VKirby Said:
I really wanted a US made Bunn, but I'd rather not have one that keeps water hot ALL the time, & they start at $250, which puts me in TV territory. With the Bonavita, I'm looking at made in china anyway, tough to justify over the $50 also certified bunn phase brew (except like you i prefer no timers & lcd's, just simple on/off). I just don't know if simplicity & looks are worth 2 1/2 times the price, as 2x as much from BV to TV is easier to justify for me, because of the TV's copper coil, not MIC, less plastic(?)- but NOT if its showerhead doesn't disperse as well, & you need to stir it.
Since all three are imports, the "American made" issue is a wash - as for Dutch vs Chinese manufacturing prowess, That would be a debate that spirals into off topic-ness. This is CoffeeGeek, not WorldTradeGeek.
Back to the brewers - the Phase Brew is $50 today, but MSRP is much higher - $50 is an incredible price for a brewer a lot of people enjoy but I expect that deal will have the life of a firefly. The consideration about the Phase Brew is design - Where do you live? The high altitude model is still $99. Do you want a thermal carafe? That model is over $100. Does your coffee maker need to fit under the counter? The Bunn is relatively tall. Do you prefer a cone filter instead of a basket filter? These choices affect the decision when finding the design that fits your needs.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Oh well, looks like they all have a weak point somewhere. If TV's considered the best, then I can't really be too hard on the cheaper models for having plastic too- just a matter if the TV really has any higher quality of plastic.
EricBNC Said:
Since all three are imports, the "American made" issue is a wash -
No, the $250 bunn I was considering is the A10, which I think (hope) is American made. Only downside with it is the 24/7 hot water resevoir, & even it has plastic. And I wouldn't mind a Chinese made machine, just not at a premium price (& the bonavita at half the price & similar performance of the TV seems more than fair).
EricBNC Said:
$50 is an incredible price for a brewer a lot of people enjoy but I expect that deal will have the life of a firefly.
I'd never even consider it at $100, over the bonavita. You make a good point though in that the phase brew price is temporary. Anyone that wants it better get it before Amazon changes the price again (or maybe it keeps dropping- down another dollar today lol). But I see it is closer to $100 everywhere else.
EricBNC Said:
The consideration about the Phase Brew is design - Where do you live? The high altitude model is still $99. Do you want a thermal carafe? That model is over $100. Does your coffee maker need to fit under the counter? The Bunn is relatively tall. Do you prefer a cone filter instead of a basket filter?
High altitude- no. THermal carafe- don't need it, but would take one all else being equal (usually they're more expensive). Counter clearance- UH OH... only 14 1/2"! Thanks for making me actually check that. All this time I've just been assuming all these would fit because my current $15 coffee maker has so much clearance, but the TV's & all the Bunns I've been looking at are out if I want it to fit under the countertop. So that makes it easy- either the Bonavita, or don't upgrade at all if I can't justify its price vs. what I want. But it's the only scaa machine that will fit under my cabinet!
Brewed my first pot with the Bonavita this afternoon. I am pleased. Measured the temp in the basket—hit 200 deg on the nose. I used two thermometers just to be sure. Did a little more than 8 cups in roughly 5ish minutes from hitting the power button, but I didn't start my timer right away—too excited to remember to hit "Start" until about a minute later.
After recently (as in the last week) having my rose coloured glasses lifted from my eyes from 20+years of living in blissful coffee brewing ignorance, I researched both the Bonavita and the Bunn HG, combing through both threads here, Amazon, and anywhere else I could find information.
Since it is such a small capacity brewer, I didn't see the need for a thermal carafe. I went with the Bonavita over the Bunn (which is still less than half the price of the Bonavita) for a few simple reasons:
1-Reportedly quieter. I hate loud noises first thing in the morning. Sometimes (heretic that I am) I will grind the night before just so I don't have to hear that awful noise right after I wake up.
B-Faster. I always drink coffee before a shower. Just my way of life.
Z-Since the TV seems to be the standard bearer and (as someone who never spent more than $30 for a coffee "maker" previously) I did not want to spend $300 dollars, the BV as a rip-of... er, similar to the TV, it seemed like a safer choice (SCAA certification for both machines not-withstanding).
4-Size really does matter since the brewer lives on the counter under cabinets.
P.S., I appreciate and sympathize with the Made in the USA crowd. I am not sure the Bunn HG is any less made in China, but would love to hear if anyone finds out definitively.
The only thing I hate is that the basket lives on the pot. If I can find a lower pot that still fits on the BV, I may try to retrofit some solution. But they didn't make that easy. The pot will have to be about 1" shorter.
I also ordered a refurbed Maestro Plus to replace my 6 year old, never maintained Black and Decker "burr" grinder. The B&D has started to make a large portion of my coffee beans into dust.
All this was after my daughter's french press was conveniently being "stored" at our house and I finally gave in to experiment with it to see if there really is a difference. Turns out there REALLY IS. Hate that. And since I've taken up home roasting, too, seemed like I might as well take fuller advantage of the new tastes possible.
The french press still tastes better, but I am still amazed at how much better my home brew has now become.
I have travelled and sampled coffee from around the world always seeking out the local roasters. I never thought my own coffee was THAT much worse. Boy was I wrong!
I've had one of these (the original European Melitta version) for several years, have always been happy with the way it performs, and have recommended it highly. If you're really interested, you can do a search for some old posts of mine about it, but I wouldn't worry too much about doing so. I still recommend it too.
However, these days I use the Technivorm almost exclusively - largely because having both brewers on the worktop just clutters things up.
Why do I use the Technivorm ? - it isn't to do with the quality of the coffee - I can't tell one machine from the other as far as that is concerned - but I do find the Technivorm easier to use.
It all takes apart and is a lot easier both to fill and to clean. The paper filter is easier to fit under the brew head (careful on the Melitta/Bonavita - it can get folded back if you aren't watching).
If you're picky, both of them need a stir to break up any bloom, and that's much easier on the Technivorm (I admit I don't normally bother).
The real killer, is that here the basic Technivorm is so CHEAP at the moment (£39.99/~$US62 including 20% tax), that I bought a second one just to get a spare jug/filter/lids. So now at any one time there's one to use and one in the dishwasher. I've also got a complete spare brewer section, although I doubt it will get much use.
They're both excellent brewers, folks, and if the price differential is large where you live, buy the cheaper of the 2.
VKirby, it's a little hard to answer your questions definitively, since there's so little objective/quantitative information available on the Bonavita. I know you've already said that only the BV will fit under your cabinets, so I'll try to answer your questions for others who may be wondering the same things.
VKirby Said:
How are the BV & TV different in terms of plastic- less total plastic contact, or it's the same amount of contact & it's just that the TV uses higher quality plastic?
As far as I can tell, the TechniVorm has much less plastic & uses higher quality polymer types. For hot water contact, the TV only has a short vertical plastic tube (4" column?) leading from the copper boiling chamber to the steel shower pipe. Then the filter basket is lab-grade polypropylene. That's it. From what I can tell, the BV's hot water contact has plastic all the way from the (aluminum?) boiling chamber to the glass carafe, & I have no knowledge of the polymer alloys used.
VKirby Said:
Also, I notice you don't list showerhead dispersal- a nonfactor between these two (I've read the BV actually has the edge in this regard)?
The videos I've watched of the BV make it appear to be no better in water dispersion than my TV. But then, for some reason, I've never had the saturation problem many others have experienced with their TVs. Water dispersion is a non-issue in my TV, & I've never had to stir my grounds (or stop the flow, or pre-brew a cup of water, or any other OCD ritual) since buying my KBTS. I also stopped pre-heating the stainless thermal carafe after a few weeks, since the coffee stays too hot to drink for more than an hour (longer than it takes to finish a pot).
VKirby Said:
I really wanted a US made Bunn, but I'd rather not have one that keeps water hot ALL the time, & they start at $250, which puts me in TV territory. With the Bonavita, I'm looking at made in china anyway, tough to justify over the $50 also certified bunn phase brew (except like you i prefer no timers & lcd's, just simple on/off). I just don't know if simplicity & looks are worth 2 1/2 times the price, as 2x as much from BV to TV is easier to justify for me, because of the TV's copper coil, not MIC, less plastic...
Have you considered the Zojirushi EC-DAC50 Zutto? All Zojiroshi products seem to get great reviews, & it looks like a wonderfully simple, compact (10-1/4" tall) brewer for a very reasonable $70 price.
"Just what I need - another 'geek' label..." - my friend Mark, on being told of Coffee Geek's existence
Brewed my first pot with the Bonavita this afternoon. I am pleased. Measured the temp in the basket—hit 200 deg on the nose. I used two thermometers just to be sure. Did a little more than 8 cups in roughly 5ish minutes from hitting the power button, but I didn't start my timer right away—too excited to remember to hit "Start" until about a minute later.
After recently (as in the last week) having my rose coloured glasses lifted from my eyes from 20+years of living in blissful coffee brewing ignorance, I researched both the Bonavita and the Bunn HG, combing through both threads here, Amazon, and anywhere else I could find information.
Since it is such a small capacity brewer, I didn't see the need for a thermal carafe. I went with the Bonavita over the Bunn (which is still less than half the price of the Bonavita) for a few simple reasons:
1-Reportedly quieter. I hate loud noises first thing in the morning. Sometimes (heretic that I am) I will grind the night before just so I don't have to hear that awful noise right after I wake up.
B-Faster. I always drink coffee before a shower. Just my way of life.
Z-Since the TV seems to be the standard bearer and (as someone who never spent more than $30 for a coffee "maker" previously) I did not want to spend $300 dollars, the BV as a rip-of... er, similar to the TV, it seemed like a safer choice (SCAA certification for both machines not-withstanding).
4-Size really does matter since the brewer lives on the counter under cabinets.
P.S., I appreciate and sympathize with the Made in the USA crowd. I am not sure the Bunn HG is any less made in China, but would love to hear if anyone finds out definitively.
The only thing I hate is that the basket lives on the pot. If I can find a lower pot that still fits on the BV, I may try to retrofit some solution. But they didn't make that easy. The pot will have to be about 1" shorter.
I also ordered a refurbed Maestro Plus to replace my 6 year old, never maintained Black and Decker "burr" grinder. The B&D has started to make a large portion of my coffee beans into dust.
All this was after my daughter's french press was conveniently being "stored" at our house and I finally gave in to experiment with it to see if there really is a difference. Turns out there REALLY IS. Hate that. And since I've taken up home roasting, too, seemed like I might as well take fuller advantage of the new tastes possible.
The french press still tastes better, but I am still amazed at how much better my home brew has now become.
I have travelled and sampled coffee from around the world always seeking out the local roasters. I never thought my own coffee was THAT much worse. Boy was I wrong!
Great review Joe - I agree with the basket comment - i have to remove it to pour the coffee - wish it has a bit more convenient - it really is like an automated Melitta pour over cone (this is a large part of the brewer's charm too).
I like the way the specialty coffee shops and vendors have embraced this brewer too - the vendor list reads like a who's who list of leaders in the specialty coffee community:
VKirby, it's a little hard to answer your questions definitively, since there's so little objective/quantitative information available on the Bonavita. I know you've already said that only the BV will fit under your cabinets, so I'll try to answer your questions for others who may be wondering the same things.
As far as I can tell, the TechniVorm has much less plastic & uses higher quality polymer types. For hot water contact, the TV only has a short vertical plastic tube (4" column?) leading from the copper boiling chamber to the steel shower pipe. Then the filter basket is lab-grade polypropylene. That's it. From what I can tell, the BV's hot water contact has plastic all the way from the (aluminum?) boiling chamber to the glass carafe, & I have no knowledge of the polymer alloys used.
The videos I've watched of the BV make it appear to be no better in water dispersion than my TV. But then, for some reason, I've never had the saturation problem many others have experienced with their TVs. Water dispersion is a non-issue in my TV, & I've never had to stir my grounds (or stop the flow, or pre-brew a cup of water, or any other OCD ritual) since buying my KBTS. I also stopped pre-heating the stainless thermal carafe after a few weeks, since the coffee stays too hot to drink for more than an hour (longer than it takes to finish a pot).
Have you considered the Zojirushi EC-DAC50 Zutto? All Zojiroshi products seem to get great reviews, & it looks like a wonderfully simple, compact (10-1/4" tall) brewer for a very reasonable $70 price.
Awesome, thank you for all the FB. I think I like the bonavita over the zojirushi. The TV does sound like the one to get- I've since seen pics of its insides that I've yet to see of other brands, its copper heating element etc. & am impressed. Would be nice.
The only thing I hate is that the basket lives on the pot. If I can find a lower pot that still fits on the BV, I may try to retrofit some solution. But they didn't make that easy. The pot will have to be about 1" shorter.
What if one bought the thermal version, then the shorter glass pot (if available separately?) from the hot plate version- I know you'd have nothing to keep it warm immediately, no burner or thermal carafe, but would it work for those who instantly pour everything into a mug (i.e. There is no shut-off valve or something so that a pot HAS to be pressed up against it for coffee to drip out)?
EDIT (strange request): any bonavita owner out there care to share with me the length of its power cord?
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