Chang94598 Senior Member Joined: 24 Oct 2007 Posts: 207 Location: SF Bay Area
Posted Mon Apr 23, 2012, 12:48am Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
Netphilosopher Said:
I haven't found this to be the case, but like all coffee, YMMV.
I just was playing around with my new refractometer and brewing cold vs. normal brews. One of them was an Ethiopia Yirg (not DP), roasted about 15 seconds BEFORE 2C - a fairly light roast for me.
Cold brewed and diluted to 1.2% and brought to 130°F, VERY faint berry flavor. Some weird sort-of instant coffee flavor also. No brightness. Aroma was fairly flat - like Colombia mainstream coffee. A faint taste of walnut at the finish with a hint of cocoa. The grounds, however, were wonderfully fragrant...
Normal brewed? Awesome, zippy cup of black currant and blueberry popping at the beginning, with a much more interesting sweetness through the cup - which surprised me (because cold brewing is supposed to be so much "sweeter"). Aroma was a wonderful bouquet of berries. Great mild overtone of dark chocolate at the end of the sip.
Cold brewing may preserve SOME of the terroir, but when compared back to back with a normal brew - there is no contest in my mind. Freshly roasted high quality coffee is WAY different cold brewed vs more normal brewed. It's up to the consumer to determine one is superior to the other or if they are just "different".
In the traditional sense of evaluating brewed coffee, wet aroma is assessed. With higher temperature, more molecules will be in vapor form. With cold brew, one can concentrate more, and is probably forced to, on the gustatory phase.
The drip cold brew can be consumed straight, not to be diluted and then heated. With full immersion cold brew, the caffeine content will be significantly higher, and not recommended in large quantities. If you are ever in SFO, you are welcome to come by my place to taste what I mean. Last week we did a flight of DP Ethiopian Gedeo Worka, 90+ Tchembe, and Don Pachi and I cannot say drip cold brew is any less satisfying.
Posted Mon Apr 23, 2012, 4:23am Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
Chang94598 Said:
In the traditional sense of evaluating brewed coffee, wet aroma is assessed. With higher temperature, more molecules will be in vapor form. With cold brew, one can concentrate more, and is probably forced to, on the gustatory phase.
The drip cold brew can be consumed straight, not to be diluted and then heated. With full immersion cold brew, the caffeine content will be significantly higher, and not recommended in large quantities. If you are ever in SFO, you are welcome to come by my place to taste what I mean. Last week we did a flight of DP Ethiopian Gedeo Worka, 90+ Tchembe, and Don Pachi and I cannot say drip cold brew is any less satisfying.
At the traditional brew ratios for cold brewed coffee, of course it will be more flavorful and intense. TDS% is more than double normal drip coffee (last couple of 20.5% brew ratio batches I just did were right around 3.5% TDS, normal coffee is 1.2% TDS). When assessed at the same strength, there is a big difference - even when the hot brew is cooled (covered).
When I know I'll be pressed (no pun intended) for time, I'll brew a high strength HOT brew the night before, cover it and put it in the fridge. Then I'll dilute to normal strength with hot water, zap it in the micro and voila - a great cup of coffee that may be a bit nicer yet than freshly brewed. When done with a Tanzania, Kenya, Ethiopia - the fruits and apple malics really pop. IF I were to consume it straight and cold, it's pretty darn intense.
That's probably why I also prefer flash brewed for iced coffee. You extract more with the heat.
As I said, I'm in the midst of assessing many of my old experiments with the refractometer. I'm noticing a thinner lipid layer with cold brewed vs. hot brewed centrifuged coffee. It's likely the cold brewing temperature is also extracting a lower amount of lipids and fatty acids. Some of the oils are indeed bitter, especially the darker and heavier (bitter) oils that sometimes collect as a slick on the top of hot coffee.
Other notes on "superiority" when it comes to brew methods is convenience.
Hot brewing and flash brewing - results in minutes. Cold brewing? Hours to a day. To me, waiting 12 or 24hours doesn't justify the difference (not saying better or worse) in the taste.
I'm also a cheap engineer, so not getting full extraction from a fairly expensive SO coffee that I spent 40 minutes roasting to my preferences just feels like I'm not getting everything from the coffee that I could get. LOL
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri May 4, 2012, 6:55am Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
So, I've been playing around (yet again) with cold brew coffee.
I keep getting low strengths for the brew ratios in the 12% range to 30% range, with corresponding lack of flavor depth. I decided to go back and make pairs of coffee hot and cold at 6.25% brew ratio (expecting a strength around 1.25%).
I decided to use a co-op Ethiopia Yirg from a local Java Masters that I roasted to shy of 2C myself (approx 8min 1C, roast ended around 11:15).
All the following apply to a ~6.25% brew ratio.
It's early, but indications are that coarse grind (drip on up to Press Pot) are not favorable for 24hr steep cold brew coffee. Strengths tend to be 1.05%-1.12%. Hot brewed (immersion) on coarse grind and extended contact times (to achieve the desired strength of 1.25%) also seem to be somewhat "off", but much better than cold brew flavor and aroma.
The surprising thing was when I went to near-espresso grind for the latest cold brewed coffee. After filtering, taste and strength sampling, I was absolutely floored at the flavor - it was outstanding, with excellent fruit (blueberry and blackberry predominant), little brightness and little citrus. When heated, there are hints of chocolate but predominantly dark berry-fruits popping out of the cup. Also surprising was the sweetness, and fairly decent body, medium-to-slightly heavy, like an extremely light syrup.
When compared to a coarser grind hot brewed same brew ratio and same strength, I actually found myself preferring the cold brewed. Body was lighter, the aroma was stronger at first but fleeting. Less sweetness and more overall brightness and a tinge of orange citrus and a decent aroma, but the berry was surprisingly less.
Now, when I use a fine grind (a half-step coarser than the cold brew grind), hot brewed is v. good. The contact times must be adjusted or strengths begin to creep up above 1.35% - but when adjusted to get the same strength (fairly short, about 2 min or less), it is fairly close to the cold brew version - except with more citrus and brightness. I liken it to the balance of sweet blueberry and tart black currant/blackberry.
I haven't crunched the data, but comparing same brew ratio - same end strength and experiencing the flavor differences with same coffee has been really enlightening. "traditional" extraction calculates that cold brew is severely underextracted - but it doesn't TASTE that way. Also there's a buttload (a technical term) more absorption for cold brew (meaning less yielded coffee). When I achieve a 1.35% extraction on finely ground longer contact time, the absorption increases and the "traditional" extraction sometimes calculates lower than a 1.25% brew, and sometimes it's only marginally higher.
So, I'm reconsidering whether it's possible to achieve full extraction with cold brew - but I suspect it's only possible if the grounds particle size is nearing cellular level (so the cold water doesn't need to penetrate unbroken lignin/cellulose structure), like nearing espresso grind.
Always surprises out there - but you need to step out of the normal "guidelines" to figure it out. The majority of cold brews as executed are underextracting (the grind recommended by Toddy is pretty coarse). Fine grinds are a PITA to filter, and it still is a difficult thing to start a cold brew and get back to it 24hr later... so it's definitely less convenient.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
rlevine Senior Member Joined: 16 Dec 2011 Posts: 18 Location: NJ Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izza Alex Duetto II Grinder: Baritza Virtuoso Preciso,... Drip: Hario kettle, V60, Chemex
Posted Tue May 8, 2012, 10:46am Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
We're talking about a consumable beverage here. There is no "superior" method. We can argue/discuss endlessly about extraction rates and total dissolved solids, but at the end of the day if you like it, all of those specs are meaningless. I suggest you brew up some coffee using several different methods and decide which you like best.
All that being said, Netphilosopher as always I appreciate and value your extensive knowledge and willingness to go outside the norms to obtain good data. Cheers!
yakster Senior Member Joined: 25 Feb 2009 Posts: 1,006 Location: San Jose, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Factory / La Peppina... Grinder: Vario / Kyocera Vac Pot: Yama 8 + Pyrex Lox-in Rod Drip: Brazen / Kalita / Chemex /... Roaster: Behmor
Posted Tue May 8, 2012, 2:07pm Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
There's a trio of recent blog posts talking about this subject and also discussing cold brew, hot brew (Japanese method) and a hybrid where you bloom the coffee with hot water and then quench the coffee with cold to lock in the aromatics. The posts are quite interesting and worth a read:
I haven't tried the hybrid, and I hear that cold brew works best when filtered through cloth (haven't tried my sock pot yet) but I am a big fan of the hot brew method using my Chemex and Kone filter and even single cups using the Aeropress.
Here's three hot brew recipes I use for iced coffee and one cold brew recipe that I tried using a short three hour soak. I didn't enjoy the cold brew as much and found it lacking in pleasant acidity and bitterness and I also enjoy the instant gratification of the hot brew method. Still, there's no right way, just the way you like it. Note, all these recipes should be used as starting points and you should adjust them to taste.
Iced Chemex 40 g Coffee 283 ml Water 196 g Ice (~8 cubes)
Double-batch "Alcatraz" iced Chemex 80 g Coffee 566 ml Water 392 g Ice (~16 cubes)
Single-Serve Iced Aeropress 14 g coffee 100 ml water 70 g ice (~3 ice cubes)
Single-Serve Cold Process Aeropress 10 g coffee 150 ml cold water 1 ice cube Soak in 8 oz Jelly Jar for 3 hours Filter through AP
Posted Tue May 8, 2012, 3:02pm Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
Bloom hot and cool immediately - I can see working - it's not that much different than flash brewing double strength onto ice.
I've tried a 2nd cup of Ethiopia Yirg at 6.25% brew ratio - and at near-espresso (-2 to -3 from "drip" icon on my Bodum Bistro) grind, the coffee produced is darn good with cold water.
I find I'm going to have to get my own pH meter... LOL.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 1:48pm Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
Last night I did something that resulted in something surprising:
I used room-temperature water to achieve 20% extraction. In less than 15 minutes.
How I did it:
Measured out 22g of coffee, ground to espresso + 1 step on my Bodum Bistro Grinder. It went into a NORMAL AeroPress
Measured out 370g of water at room temperature.
In the past, if I put the water in and left it overnight, I'd end up with about a strength of 1.00% to 1.05%, where the target strength would be around 1.25%.
In this case, I put the water into the Aeropress about 30ml at a time, mixed and pressed, withdrew the plunger, added more water, mixed and pressed... about 8-10 times.
At the end of about 10 minutes, I used the last bit to wash off the stirrer, mixed and pressed.
Stirred the result, pulled a small sample and tucked it into the the fridge.
It was late, so I just quickly checked the strength, figured I did something wrong (because it was 1.25%), and cleaned up the VST and went to bed. Woke in the morning, pulled a new sample, and heated the cup of coffee.
As I took the first sip, I was pretty surprised - a very chocolatey cup with a great smooth taste, with a slight flavor reminiscent of passion fruit tea - unbelievable as this is simple Eight o Clock 100% Colombia from WalMart. The morning sample was also right in the ballpark of 1.25%-1.27%.
347g of 1.25% strength coffee cold brewed from 22g of initial dry coffee at approximately 5.8% brew ratio.
(347*.0125)/22 = 19.7% extraction. First time I've ever been able to achieve a "normal" extraction with cold brewed coffee - and I did it in under 15 minutes!
Why it works: I turned the AeroPress into a percolation method brewer. By mixing the brew water with the grounds and then pressing them in small steps, and using an end brew ratio like normal (5.75% approximate target), I essentially mimic the process of a drip brewer. Not sure if anyone has ever tried to do this with a pourover, but now I'm wondering if it might work.
I think the keys here are:
-VERY fine grind. Otherwise, I suspect I need hot water to get into the larger grind particles, so use a small grind that is 300Microns or less. -Stepped extraction, or percolation. Each time I did a step, the coffee coming out was weaker. A drip brewer might work well if stretched over time.
I'm really gonna have to rethink cold brewing and brewing in general. The last several weeks have been enlightening.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
tahoejoe Senior Member Joined: 9 Sep 2003 Posts: 557 Location: San Diego/ Incline Village Nv. Expertise: I live coffee
Grinder: Solis Maestro Drip: Behmor Brazen Brew System Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Fri May 18, 2012, 2:15pm Subject: Re: Cold Brew or Hot Brew? Which one is the superior method?
When I first started this journey I was fortunate enough to meet a major supplier to the market, former master roaster and COE judge. In other words the man knows his sh-- and is widely respected throughout the industry.
One of the first things he tried to impress upon me was, no matter what any expert or others might tell you at the end of the day its all up to you- the person".
I've done Toddy- cold brew since the early 90s (it is why I went back to drinking coffee- lucky me) and love many aspects of it but have also found (especially while testing the BraZen) that a hot brew brings a nice change to the same bean. I have cold brew in the fridge and a BraZen on the counter so I choose based upon my mood, time of day or outside weather.
Coffee for me is a personal quest and journey which is influenced to some degree by others in how I approach things but at the end of the day, its between me, myself and I.... with solid input from my wife ;-)
Go with what works for you...
REMINDER: Never leave the roaster unattended when in use !! And remember to use our Rosetta Stone tip PART V PARAGRAPH 3.. it works !!!
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