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Netphilosopher
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Jun 6, 2012, 7:58am
Subject: Moka Pot and Turkish Coffee
 

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svyerkgeniiy
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Joined: 14 Dec 2006
Posts: 380
Location: New York City, NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: (-ish) Bialetti moka pot
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Vac Pot: Yama (large 8-cup)
Drip: Technivorm KBT; Clever...
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Jun 6, 2012, 8:15am
Subject: Re: Moka Pot and Turkish Coffee: Brew Parameters?
 

Lots of moka pot experience, very little turkish (though I have tried).

Moka pot:
  • grams of coffee-- don't think grams, think about filling the entire basket.  The brewer works best at full capacity; a half-filled basket might leave a soggy mess and not brew properly as the water has to pass through the non-filled part of the basket.
  • grams of water-- best if always used to full pot, though you could reduced this without brewing difficulty.  You might not like the result (strength and extraction changes), but I never tried so I can't tell you the results myself.  Interesting experiment idea...
  • grams of produced coffee-- water in == water out, minus small amounts for grounds absorption, steam escape, and small remainder in the bottom of the reservoir.
  • grind level-- slightly finer than drip.  You can go lower than this, you should experiment here.  For a finer grind I recommend a shorter brew time (== higher flame), but too fine will either cause an astringent extraction or even plug up the brewer.  A plugged brewer might wind up setting off the release valve, or make it more likely to leak along the gasket seal.  Also be aware that a more dusty grind will plug up the brewer more easily, even at a coarser setting.  So grinder matters even here.

I won't share my turkish results, I'm still experimenting and I almost need someone to show me first.

 
Donald Varona
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Netphilosopher
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
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Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Jun 6, 2012, 11:24am
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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Wed Jun 6, 2012, 12:44pm
Subject: Re: Moka Pot and Turkish Coffee: Brew Parameters?
 

Netphilosopher Said:

Understood about filling the entire basket.  Since you're not tamping, the mass will be pretty constant.

So for a standard Moka pot brew: any idea what the unit weighs empty, then with coffee, then with coffee+water?  I can get the brew ratio from there.  

Coffee produced would be poured off nearly immediately and measured, and evap and other losses (un-cycled water, for example, since the standpipe doesn't reach all the way to the bottom of the container - at least on the one unit I've played with).

Posted June 6, 2012 link

I'm not sure there is a consensus on a standard moka pot. They come in a variety of sizes and are made from different materials. If one has to choose perhaps the 3 cup Bialetti Moka Express might qualify.

I have a 3 cup stainless steel pot. It weighs about a 400 grams empty.

It is true that you should fill the funnel without tamping but it is not true that the mass is constant. Grind and coffee type and roast affect how much will fit in the funnel. For example, a darker roasted drip grind maxes out my 50ml funnel at about 17g. A medium roasted coffee ground a little bit finer fills it at 18.7g, although a little more would fit okay. If I grind that same coffee a couple of steps finer I can easily get over 20g. An espresso grind will fit even more but will also probably clog the pot and open the relief valve.

I've used drip grind to espresso grind in my moka pot and achieved good results (and bad) with all of them, although the espresso grind causes the valve to emit steam. Illy sells cans of coffee ground specifically for moka. You can buy it on Amazon.com. I don't know what that size is but it's somewhere between drip and espresso.

For a given coffee and grind the brew ratio is adjustable by how much water you put in. For example, in my pot filling just below the valve is 175ml, middle of the valve is 200ml, and just above the valve is 225ml. These different amounts of water have an effect not only on mass of beverage produced but also on yield and strength: more water = greater yield and lower strength.

My pot leaves behind about 25g of water in the bottom. When dosed to 18.7g the spent grounds usually retain about 18g of water. So when filled with 200g of water I get about 150g in the cup, with 7-10g of water evaporating during brewing and between removing the grounds and water and weighing them.

I'm glad you're finally starting to look into moka!
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Netphilosopher
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Posted Wed Jun 6, 2012, 2:29pm
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jpender
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jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Wed Jun 6, 2012, 3:32pm
Subject: Re: Moka Pot and Turkish Coffee: Brew Parameters?
 

No pressure intended. I'm just looking forward to the information as well as a different perspective.

Netphilosopher Said:

Implied Wb (Brew Water used for extraction) would be G+Cp-C=roughly 168g

Posted June 6, 2012 link

Brew water is the starting water minus the residual water (175g). All evaporation occurs post-brew.

edit: I was forgetting that coffee is not just water. So the evaporation is really 2-5g.
Here's a breakdown from an actual brew

18.71g coffee
199.9g water

148.2g water in beverage (beverage mass minus solids)
25.7g residual water
23.8g water removed from grounds in oven
------
197.7g

2.2g lost to evaporation. This is mostly from the grounds and residual water, after I've opened up the still very hot pot but before I can collect and measure them.
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oktyone
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Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Jun 6, 2012, 5:49pm
Subject: Re: Moka Pot and Turkish Coffee: Brew Parameters?
 

Closest thing to "standard" brew parameters on Turkish Coffee ( la SCAA) can be found on the Turkish Coffee Culture and Research Association site:

http://www.turkkahvesidernegi.org/tr/pages/standarts/

I had to run it through google translate, but just to summarize..

1) Beans: 100% Arabica (i like their letter classification system):

S: blends that include at least 75% of Brazil Rio Minas coffee
G: single origin Brazil Rio Minas.
H: any other kind of single origins
A: for any kind of "pre-flavored coffee" (cardamom, cinnamon, clove, etc)
K: decaf

Their preference towards Rio Minas coffee is attributed to the overwhelming popularity of the most known brand/roaster in Turkey (Kuru Kahveci Mehmet Efendi), which uses it prominently in its blends since the early 1900's.

2) Roast:
Any kind of roast basically

3)Grind Size:
70% to 75% of particles of 75 to 125 micron; or #120-#170 sieve size (probably just fancy for "talcum powder" size)

4)Brewing per turkish coffee cup:

30ml water
7-8 g ground coffee (2 level teaspoons)
From no sugar to 3 sugar cubes (8-9 g)
Shouldn't brew less coffee than the intended size of cezve/ibrik
3 min. total time, starting with water and ground coffee at room temperature.
Stir on heat unti the mixture is even (no clumps)
First "rise" should happen at 80C, second one at about 95C, a third rise is optional.
If brewing more than one cup, the coffee should be distributed evenly by pouring little by little into each cup, rather than filling one after another.

No exact measure on total .ml of "produced coffee", but i'd say it's about 20 ml. since the rest of the cup is undrinkable due to grounds settled at the bottom.

But these are just basic guidelines, an attempt to standardize turkish coffee is too frustrating and doesn't do the method justice, since one of it's characteristics are its versatility and variations among the countries that still drink it regularly (most of the former ottoman empire), and even among different families.. that's actually the beauty of it, not attempting a magic extraction or strength number.

I use those parameters as a basis, but i like to experiment every once in a while.
The brew time/temperature and the "rises" are where it gets the most complicated, i found i like it more when i heat the water on medium up to about 70C set aside half of the water, add the ground coffee and stir, let it rise just once (happens pretty quickly), add the water previously set aside, allow about 1min. to rest, and then pour.
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Netphilosopher
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Joined: 14 Jan 2011
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Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Thu Jun 7, 2012, 4:50am
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