Posted Sun Jan 19, 2003, 4:15pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
Hello Scott,
Would the 4 types of decaffination be appropriate? I'm thinking along the lines where say SWP may not affect flavor of Indonesian Coffees where on the other hand it may reduce the wonders of Central American coffees. Otherwise, maybe a blurb on the just the different types and basically how they each work.
CO2 Ethyl Acetate (aka natural process) Methyl Chloride Swiss Water
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Sun Jan 19, 2003, 4:33pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
TWIGA Said:
Hello Scott,
Would the 4 types of decaffination be appropriate? I'm thinking along the lines where say SWP may not affect flavor of Indonesian Coffees where on the other hand it may reduce the wonders of Central American coffees. Otherwise, maybe a blurb on the just the different types and basically how they each work.
CO2 Ethyl Acetate (aka natural process) Methyl Chloride Swiss Water
Take a nap, and wake up already outdated ... there's a new decaf process - plain "water process" done by a Mexican plant. Tom is offering some that are quite awesome for decafs, i.e. only 5/100 points less then the originals, rather than the usual 10 to 15.
I know there's some who say "if it's decaf, it isn't coffee." But I'm an insomniac, so I;ve been roasting and blending the stuff for 18 months now.
My conclusion: Most decafs deserve all the mockery they get; but some are only a hair below the undecaf equivalents. Strangley, I think it has less to do with the decaf process than bean selection. The few really good ones I've had all have great bloodlines -- a "Horse" Ghimbi, a La Minita prep Columbian, etc. I'm guessing that the bulk of inferior decafs are made from very low grade greens.
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Sun Jan 19, 2003, 4:48pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
ScottR Said:
... Jim, Geez, that *is* insanely long!! I'm not sure where to begin as far as summarizing it for the coffee FAQ... how about this, "4. How important is the water? um... the heck with it, just read the water FAQ."
I got carried away. Also I wanted to raise the level of water discussions on alt.coffee to the same level of geekyness (er, erudition) as all the other stuff.
The basic general conclusions:
Water should be safe for drinking, clear, taste and odor free.
90 mg/l hardness (neutral to moderately hard water) is recommended by most coffee authorities for optimum taste. But most people find moderately soft water quite palatable too. However, distilled or RO water is too soft and most people find the resulting coffee too harsh
Excess hardness or normal chlorination doesn't affect coffee taste, since the heating of the water removes them. However, the chloramide disinfection used by some water boards requires charcoal filtering. Also excess hardness leads to scale build up requiring coffee equipment to be descaled regularly. If the equipment cannot be easily descaled, moderately soft water (25 - 50 mg/l hardness) is recommended.
ScottR Senior Member Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 37 Location: Massapequa Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Baby, Saeco Via... Grinder: Solis Maestro Plus Vac Pot: many (daily use: Bodum mini... Drip: none Roaster: iRoast, Alpenrost, Z&D,...
Posted Sun Jan 19, 2003, 9:34pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
Isn't the Mexican-plant water process essentially the same technique as SWP, just with better results? Certainly the decaf techniques should be included--that's one of those topics that I think to add when I'm not near the computer, and promptly forget about when I start on the FAQ again. :) In essence, unless someone knows more about this than I do, we have
CO2 Ethyl Acetate (aka natural process) Methyl Chloride Water Process
i.e., same list of four, just adjusting the last term.
Jim, Re: water. While researching this topic, I found a SCAA document which states that, as part of their brewer certification program, they use water containting "100 and 200 parts per million (ppm) dissolved minerals." <http://www.scaa.org/standards.cfm>
Since I havent' really researched this aspect as of yet, might you be able to put these higher numbers in perspective?
So far, I had added some language which, in relevant part, states that "basically, if your water tastes good straight, it will likely make good coffee."
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Sun Jan 19, 2003, 10:02pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
ScottR Said:
Isn't the Mexican-plant water process essentially the same technique as SWP, just with better results?
I'll try to find out.
Re: water. While researching this topic, I found a SCAA document which states that, as part of their brewer certification program, they use water containing "100 and 200 parts per million (ppm) dissolved minerals." <http://www.scaa.org/standards.cfm>
The figures I gave are in hardness units; they have to be converted to get total minerals. In addition, there's usually some minerals that aren't part of water hardness. The two standards are roughly equivalent.
Ok, researching the topic of decaffeination more thoroughly, it seems that the sources don't all agree on how it's done. First, for methyl chloride and ethyl acetate, Ken Davids, in both _Home Coffee Roasting_ and _Espresso: Ultimate Coffee_, states quite clearly that the solvent **never comes into contact with the beans**, that water removes the flavors and caffeine from the beans, the caffeine is removed from the water by the solvents, and the water is mixed in with the beans which "soak up the flavor components again." This technique is affirmed by the Coffee Reseach Institute.
indicates that the solvent directly contacts the bean. The beans are steamed first, but only to swell the bean, not to remove the caffeine or any flavors. This is echoed by the Coffee Science Information Center and Schapira, "The Book of Tea and Coffee"
But wait: there's more!! Davids indicates that Swiss Water Process first removes the flavors and caffeine from a "startup batch" of coffee, which is then discarded, and the caffeine is removed from the water. Another batch of beans is soaked in this water, but only the caffeine dissolves, since the water is already saturated with the other chemicals. This is how I'd understood things to work The coffeeresearch.org document (same link as above) agrees with this, but the Coffee Science Information Center says that "the liquor containing water soluble components but without caffeine is then either concentrated and reincorporated on the decaffeinated beans, which have been partially pre-dried, or re-circulated through the beans and the caffeine is removed - this process is continually repeated."
The ICO seems to agree with the CSIC somwhat, at least by differentiating SWP from other water processes in some way.
Where's the confusion???
BTW, Jim: the discussion of the Mexican water process plant. Does it possibly use the "sparkling water process," i.e., where the caffeine is removed from the water using carbon dioxide, rather than activated carbon filters?
izark Senior Member Joined: 27 Dec 2002 Posts: 47 Location: Harrisburg Expertise: Aficionado
Espresso: Olympia Cremina, Elli/Matic Grinder: Rocky Doserless Drip: Bunn 8 cup Roaster: Caffe Rosto, Hearthware...
Posted Mon Jan 20, 2003, 3:12pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
Scott,
I brought up the filter issue, and assummed the FAQ would naturally bring a sane person to the issue of upgrading. I just through in the part about upgrading in order to sell you on including it in the FAQ.
just an aside,
I know there's some who say "if it's decaf, it isn't coffee." But I'm an insomniac, so I;ve been roasting and blending the stuff for 18 months now.
Is that like saying sex with a condom is not sex? :o)
ScottR Senior Member Joined: 27 Dec 2001 Posts: 37 Location: Massapequa Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Baby, Saeco Via... Grinder: Solis Maestro Plus Vac Pot: many (daily use: Bodum mini... Drip: none Roaster: iRoast, Alpenrost, Z&D,...
Posted Mon Jan 20, 2003, 3:51pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
Izark, I worked on the Filters topic again today, and I now have about a full bloody PAGE on filters alone. Phew. One thing threw me: how to describe the appearance of Cory glass filter rods without going into rather off-color references. :)
What I was not clear on is which aspect of coffee brewing you are referring to by the "why's to upgrade." Brewing method? Grinding? Roasting? All of them? As far as brewing method, I've given the pros and cons of each method, but that aspect is less clear-cut as to why to upgrade than the others. I've been VERY clear on grinding: I reiterate any number of times that Stale Is Bad. And of course, I go into why you might wish to cast sanity aside and roast your own.
To all: I have a updated version of the contents, and also want to start posting the FAQ text (section by section), once I get some of the confusion about the decaf process sorted out. My question is would it be easier if I put up the "beta" stuff on a website (I have space to do so). I just thought it might be easier to update as it's reviewed and corrected, and easier to reference.
izark Senior Member Joined: 27 Dec 2002 Posts: 47 Location: Harrisburg Expertise: Aficionado
Espresso: Olympia Cremina, Elli/Matic Grinder: Rocky Doserless Drip: Bunn 8 cup Roaster: Caffe Rosto, Hearthware...
Posted Mon Jan 20, 2003, 8:10pm Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
Scott,
When I was talking about upgrading, I was refering to the filters. Upgrading is a natural progression and I really don't think it is something that can be handled effectively in a FAQ. I feel the best way to broach the subject is to put out the info, and let the reader decide where they need to upgrade.
Now that being said there are some places that upgrading is very clear, pump verses steam, burr verses blade. And these are not just upgrades these are neccesities.
But so many of the upgrades are more subjective, and are governed by opinion. These should be left up to the reader to decide.
Posted Tue Jan 21, 2003, 8:32am Subject: Re: Coffee FAQ
ScottR Said:
I worked on the Filters topic again today, and I now have about a full bloody PAGE on filters alone. Phew. One thing threw me: how to describe the appearance of Cory glass filter rods without going into rather off-color references. :)
Are you limited to words only in the FAQ's? I saw a picture of one of these jewels and it was really worth it. Words would have been too difficult.
As far as brewing method, I've given the pros and cons of each method, but that aspect is less clear-cut as to why to upgrade than the others. I've been VERY clear on grinding: I reiterate any number of times that Stale Is Bad. And of course, I go into why you might wish to cast sanity aside and roast your own.
For me, brew methods become a matter of preference. For example, I like drip coffee for its convenience. That said, my inexpensive drip maker works but doesn't deliver the best cup possible. When to upgrade is when I want better coffee out of a particular method. I now have a drip set-up that lets me adjust the temperature of the water going into the grounds and a spearate temperature control for the warming plate. No vacuum carafe on this model yet. If they should come out with one, I might consider upgrading. However, if I brew more than I can drink and want some later, I use a vacuum carafe that I have.
For vac pots, making the jump was simply a trial thing. Try it and if I liked it, I kept doing it. I like it so I keep doing it. If I get around to getting other vac pots, it will be upgraded because of some esoteric thing here more likely than not.
Espresso definitely has its own reasons to upgrade which you are already addressing. To all: I have a updated version of the contents, and also want to start posting the FAQ text (section by section), once I get some of the confusion about the decaf process sorted out. My question is would it be easier if I put up the "beta" stuff on a website (I have space to do so). I just thought it might be easier to update as it's reviewed and corrected, and easier to reference.
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