I'd been using my 6-cup Bialetti for cafe Cubanos, with some success. Hadn't tired Americanos...until I got a 9-cup Vesubio Via Veneto the other day. Tried it out this morning, and decided to give it a shot (so to speak).
Gads, what I have I been missing? I may have to switch from the dripolator...
Looks just like the Bialetti (except I originally bought the 9-cup).
Capacity of the basket, level, is 90% of 2XAeroPress Scoop. If I have a coffee that is 27.5g of DEAD LEVEL AeroPress scoops (13.75g per level AP scoop), this basket DEAD LEVEL measures 25g. If I use a coffee that's 23.4g dead level 2xAP scoops, then the basket will hold about 21g of coffee.
So, that's the dose.
Water level to the bottom of the pressure valve is 275g cold water. Using just cold suction, there is about 11g of water left at the bottom, but I anticipate that the actual retention will be more than that when brewing.
The device looks like somewhere around a 10ish effective water brew ratio, or a yield expected in the 200g range (if evap is minimal, which it ain't), and expected strength around 2.5% (about half-espresso).
I expect the yield to be lower than that, because of two things: -Evaporation -brew water retention in the lower pressure chamber (the water inside the tube won't make it all the way through the coffee grounds, so will be part of the retention).
I think they consider 1 "cup" = 1oz, like an espresso shot. 6 "cups" = 6 fl oz or around 170g yield.
I don't have the data in front of me, but I recall getting well over 3% strength with the 9-cup... but I'll have to go back and take a look.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
I guess that means my S/S pot is a 4-cup. I thought it was a 3-cup model. I bought it so long ago I've forgotten what the box said.
Just for comparison: 176g water filled below valve 50ml basket volume (15-22g untamped grounds, depending on coffee) 125-130g beverage 23-27g residual water in boiler wet grounds / initial coffee = 1.8-2.2 strength somewhere around 3.0%
Bialetti says this about their Moka Express models:
(Please note that the max. boiler capacity is slightly more than the final output since there is always a little water left in the boiler after brewing.)
That makes it sound like mine is a 3-cup afterall. I use it as 1-cup.
Respectfully, that is NOTY correct.I spent my first 21 years in Miami, "Little Havana" to be exact. No sel;f-respecting corner cafe or restaurant would EVER prepare a traditional cafe Cubano in anything but a pump espresso machine, into the "brikka" type vessel, add copious amounts of sugar, stir vigorously, and pout into the tiny .75 oz cups. It's think as oil, and a 100 times sweeter. The combination of sugar and caffeine from Robusta coffee raised Latin tempers even higher! LOL
Perhaps in the home a Moka pot might be used, but that is not the same drink. I must say you are one of the very few I've come across that prefers Moka pot coffee to a true espresso shot prepared in a pump or lever espresso machine. What did you do with all the left-over money? :>D
Posted Sun Dec 16, 2012, 1:02pm Subject: Re: Crap - couldn't avoid impulse buy! (AGAIN!)
First brew. I planned based on W=275 C=25
Assimilation = ~1.2 based on mostly Jpender's estimates of the grounds after brewing with his moka pot.
I was hoping that the pot would brew about 20% extraction, I chose the grind as Lido-2.0, and estimated the overall evap loss (based on a few of my Bialetti pots) at around 25g.
I expected that about 10g would be residual in the bottom chamber.
Based on those assumptions, I predicted:
275g-25g-(1.2*25) = 220g Produced Coffee
25*.2 = 5g TDS,
Predicted Produced Coffee: 220g at 2.27% strength.
Predicted G = 55g
Actual Measurements for the system: Tare Filter Basket: 16.5g Tare Top: 191.9g Tare Bottom: 142.3g
Filled to the release valve, W=284.3g Filled the basket with Ethiopia blend from Redolencia Coffee: C=25.9g
The brewing wasn't as smooth as I thought. Small weeps from the pressure valve, and seeping from around the connection of the top and bottom. The seal doesn't act like it's sealing well right now.
At the end of brewing:
P=203.9g (low to prediction) G=51.7g (low to prediction)
Strength = 2.62%
E = (0.0262*203.9)/25.9 = 20.6%
Calculated Assimilation A = (G-C)/C = 0.996 (low to prediction)
Residual in lower chamber = 5.8g (low to prediction)
Calculated system loss = W + C - G - P - Residual = 48.8 (high to prediction)
There's also the overall system "mass transfer" that I've tracked, using the original model of P = W - (X * C), where X = (W - P) / C. In this case, that factor is 3.1, mostly because of the large percentage loss.
The result was an overall brewed coffee, when diluted to 1.35% strength, that is very similar to a Press Pot brew of same coffee with strike temperature of 208°F, or a metal gold-tone filter on a pourover with high strike temperature. Lots of body. Significant fines (less than press pot) in the cup. Flavor more robust, with a de-emphasis on the fruits and sweets in favor of body, richness, chocolates and unsweetened cocoa notes. Slight bit of astringency at the finish.
Even with a metal filter, I think it would be extremely difficult to nearly impossible to get this flavor profile with an AeroPress, but it isn't that dramatically different than those brew methods that are metal-filtered. I think that I could get a near-duplicate (in fact, I think I have) with an insulated Press Pot.
Interesting, anyways.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
jpender Senior Member Joined: 11 Jul 2011 Posts: 394 Location: California Expertise: I like coffee
Grinder: Kyocera CM-50 Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot Drip: Aeropress
Posted Sun Dec 16, 2012, 2:44pm Subject: Re: Crap - couldn't avoid impulse buy! (AGAIN!)
Netphilosopher Said:
Assimilation = ~1.2 based on mostly Jpender's estimates of the grounds after brewing with his moka pot. ...Calculated Assimilation A = (G-C)/C = 0.996 (low to prediction)
Hmmm? I posted that I get 0.8-1.2. Averaged over 50 brews I got 1.0.
Netphilosopher Said:
Small weeps from the pressure valve, and seeping from around the connection of the top and bottom. The seal doesn't act like it's sealing well right now.
Seepy pressure valve? Leaking gasket? Well, you did buy a cheap knockoff. That said, when I put in a new gasket it often takes a number of brews for it to set.
Netphilosopher Said:
I think it would be extremely difficult to nearly impossible to get this flavor profile with an AeroPress, but it isn't that dramatically different than those brew methods that are metal-filtered. I think that I could get a near-duplicate (in fact, I think I have) with an insulated Press Pot.
I estimated (apparently incorrectly) it would be on the "wet" side, and it was the value that stuck in my head from your posts without be going back and looking for the posts. Then, so many people were telling me to add the extraction... ;)
Seems like our pots are acting "similarly".
Going forward, I'll treat it as (G-C)/C = ~1.0
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
So, interesting brew this morning. I did a slight tamp on a LIDO-2.0 grind.
24.3g Brew Coffee 270.0g Hot Water into the reservoir
I was watching for any significant losses in the system.
After achieving decent pressure, I noted that the flow was really slow. Pretty darn slow. Actually very slow. It took a full five minutes to get to the point where I decided enough was enough.
150.3g Produced Coffee. 3.31% strength!
60.5g Wet Grounds
40.7g water residual (meaning this water was not part of the brew ratio, so effective Brew Water = 229.3g)
By my math, overall loss was 42.8g
Normalized Brew Parameters:
on 24.3g Brew Coffee:
R (Brew Ratio) = (270 - 40.7)/24.3 = 9.43 Y (Yield Ratio) = 6.18 G (Grounds Mass Ratio) = 2.49 A (Assimilation, accounting for residual) = (Brew Water - Produced)/(Brew Coffee) = (270-40.7-150.3)/24.3 = 3.25 L (Mass Loss Ratio) = 1.76
Again, a fairly high loss ratio. Overall taste was pretty roasty, elements of overextraction. Calculated extraction yield (E) = 3.31 * 6.18 = 20.45%, technically spot on. The other interesting thing is the grounds mass ratio, this is typically 1.1 or so.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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