Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012, 8:40pm Subject: Re: What makes a stronger coffee moka pot or aeropress
A greater weight of dry coffee to the weight or volume of water will produce coffee with greater strength.
A finer grind of coffee or higher temperature water will result in greater extraction, leading to the perception of a stronger coffee.
Neither method of brewing should inherently produce a stronger cup of coffee. However, I've found moka pot coffee is often easily more (over-)extracted, leading to a perception of greater strength. Where Aeropressed coffee often uses a much higher dose of dry coffee to water, but lower temperatures, which make it a bit of a toss-up in my mind.
If trying to choose between the two, I'd go for an Aeropress, as you can fit essentially as much coffee as you'd like in it, as opposed to a moka pot, which has a fixed size basket already made to be filled to its brim.
Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012, 9:01pm Subject: Re: What makes a stronger coffee moka pot or aeropress
When you say "stronger coffee," you also need to be clear about what, exactly, you mean by "stronger." More caffeine? More intense flavor? Darker? What makes a cup of coffee strong to you?
I know some people who grew up on Bustelo, La Llave, and the like, for whom coffee is only strong enough if the roast is greasy black carbon and the cup is overextracted to the point of extreme bitterness. Others for whom the coffee is only strong enough when they put two bags of coffee in the office coffee machine so they can get a serious caffeine fix that they have to doctor with sweetener and powdered whey and hydrogenated vegetable oils to choke down. Not saying you fit into either one of those categories, just that there are a lot of ideas about what "strong" coffee is. Which is yours?
Posted Thu Aug 9, 2012, 9:53pm Subject: Re: What makes a stronger coffee moka pot or aeropress
Everything else being the same, that is to say, the same grind, the same amount of coffee, the same amount of water for two different brewing styles, the moka pot will make a stronger cup of coffee.
I disagree that moka pot will over extract because the water doesn't actually contact the coffee for very long, it flows right through when it reaches boiling and it's unfiltered but I suppose that depends on your grind & tamp. I think the aeropress tends to over extract because it is a full immersion brew (the coffee actually sits in the water for up to 4 minutes--depending on your procedure). However, you lose some flavor in the form of coffee oils when you press through a paper filter. I haven't tried a metal filter in the aeropress but the mouthfeel from the moka pot is heavier, as well, so it tastes stronger to me.
Not sure why you keep posting this, but its far from true, unless your using crappy beans. I've made excellent coffee with a Moka including Paradise beans like I mentioned in the other post. Plenty of espresso beans pull better above 200+ degrees as well so that debunks the '200+ degree burnt taste'. Just finished some beans up that pulled best at 203 for espresso.
OP what wabbit said is correct, Moka coffee generally will have a heavier feel/taste to it kinda like a good espresso shot having that syrupy feel.
Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012, 4:42am Subject: Re: What makes a stronger coffee moka pot or aeropress
wabbitt Said:
Everything else being the same, that is to say, the same grind, the same amount of coffee, the same amount of water for two different brewing styles, the moka pot will make a stronger cup of coffee.
I disagree that moka pot will over extract because the water doesn't actually contact the coffee for very long, it flows right through when it reaches boiling and it's unfiltered but I suppose that depends on your grind & tamp. I think the aeropress tends to over extract because it is a full immersion brew (the coffee actually sits in the water for up to 4 minutes--depending on your procedure). However, you lose some flavor in the form of coffee oils when you press through a paper filter. I haven't tried a metal filter in the aeropress but the mouthfeel from the moka pot is heavier, as well, so it tastes stronger to me.
For infusion/immersion brewing, the end strength for long contact times is pretty much dependent on grind size. Smaller brew sizes will have a tendency to reduce the likelihood of over-extraction because the temperature is dropping throughout the contact time.
Having measured several moka pot brews (and eventually returning it), the high temperature CAN (not always) increase the tendency to overextract. My very first moka pot brew (with my own - I fooled around with a friends smaller one for a while before purchasing my own) was about 22.3% yield-based extraction [(yielded coffee * strength) / mass of basket coffee ]
It's REALLY REALLY hard to overextract with the AeroPress because: fine grind makes pressing overly difficult AeroPress has a quick thermal dissipation
Up to about 12 minutes, only the most finest, powdery grinds (I call it near-espresso, not really bi-modal like a true espresso grind) continue to extract in a Mason Jar (which has a higher thermal profile, especially if pre-heated).
Agreed on the moka pot mouthfeel - I get a full, chocolatey almost-milky/silky mouthfeel with the moka. YMMV, but personally I find the moka process a bit fussy, the liquid left in the lower container is variable (making measured brews more difficult), and the coffee load/dose is fairly fixed. It's sensitive to tamping.
Can you make great coffee with the Moka? Absolutely.
Can you make great coffee with the AeroPress? Absolutely.
Put both devices in the hands of the novice whose never used both, and I'd bet a lb of Ethiopia Yirg that the cup from the AeroPress will come out better, but the Moka will come out "stronger" (but probably not in a good way).
:^D
On oils: for the most part, absorption of oils is partly the paper filter and partly the grounds cake. Use a plastic mesh or metal filter (both lipophobic) and you increase the oils in your cup. Mild pressure can push oils through both paper filters and the grounds, but not a lot (that's why the AP when used "normally" don't end up with significant oils in the cup).
However - the ratio of filter material to grounds plays a part in how much oil is in the cup. If the grounds depth (like in a pourover, or flat bottomed like a Bunn) is low, then only the stuff absorbed in the paper filter is not getting to the cup. With the AP, the ratio of the filter to grounds at a deep depth is much lower - so the grounds are actually responsible for much of the oils absorption.
Press or express some of the coffee in an inverted aeropress before re-verting - even with a paper filter - and you get more oils in your cup. This saturates the paper filter first, then some more of the oils make it to the other side - which you dump into the cup. Not all of the oils - because there is emulsified oil in the rest of the coffee.
I also find that a poly filter felt filter lets more oils into the cup (plastic is lipophobic), but this can be reduced by brewing normally and pressing through the grounds cake.
Just beverage for thought.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012, 10:04am Subject: Re: What makes a stronger coffee moka pot or aeropress
Thanks everyone
I had a moka pot in the past but got rid of it since I have a rancilio Sylvia. However since I almost always add an ounce of water to each shot of espresso to get that moka pot taste. I figured I sell silvia and buy a moka pot again, but there were so many great reviews on the aeropress with people stating it tasted like a moka pot. I thought I look into it but with the above comments it seems like the moka pot is the way to go for me. Unless someone else has something to add
Posted Fri Aug 10, 2012, 1:01pm Subject: Re: What makes a stronger coffee moka pot or aeropress
If cleanup matters, for me the cleanup and disposal of grounds was much easier and quicker with the AP vs. the Moka.
Moka is still better to clean up than a press pot.
Some people don't like the "plastic" contact with the AP. The Moka (most of them anyway) are aluminum, and some people have an issue with aluminum leaching. Personally, I don't think it matters, but another point-counterpoint to consider.
I think you can get a much wider range of taste with the AP, there's limited flexibility with the Moka. Once you're dialed in with the Moka, though, it makes great coffee at a pretty high strength. Espresso, it ain't, and a definite lean toward cocoa notes. It makes AWESOME Sumatra.
------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- Le café doit être noir comme le diable, chaud comme l'enfer, pur comme un ange, et doux comme l'amour.
"There is no right answer with coffee. There is only the elixir in your cup at the moment you partake."
"...I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind;..." - Lord Kelvin RECIPES thread => http://www.coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/585708
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