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Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
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Discussions > Coffee > Machines > Now we know what...  
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MJW
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Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2013, 6:17pm
Subject: My water situation
 

I measured my water.  I'm using Mavea filters to filter tap water.

Mavea filtered tap water.  General hardness: 200 ppm.  Alkalinity: 110 ppm.  (Plus or minus 18 ppm.)

Tap water, before filtering.  General hardness: 290.  Alkalinity: 200.

As you can see, the Mavea filter reduces hardness significantly but not enough to get it down to ideal levels.
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frcn
Senior Member
frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
Posts: 3,349
Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Fri Jan 25, 2013, 11:14pm
Subject: Re: My water situation
 

Run it through the Mavea filters twice.

 
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al1701
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Jan 2013
Posts: 3
Location: Pearl, MS
Expertise: I live coffee

Grinder: Sol Maestro
Drip: Behmor Brazen
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Jan 26, 2013, 8:15pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

Hey Everyone,

Came looking for answers to the excess water left in the resevoir after a full brew, so I have been reading thru the last 10 pages or so.

To start with my whole house, hot and cold is filtered at every sink, toilet, shower, outside faucets, etc., because I know taking Chlorine and chemicals out prolong all of our appliances and is better for my families health. Our 7 year old tankless heater has shown no visible signs of scale and it is copper and heats at 225,000 BTU's when it is turned on and this is one of the things they tell you to watch on tankless hot water heaters, so....I'm not sure if it is a calcium problem since it is hard to see into the little hole, which I assume is where the filter screen is based on what I'm reading here, correct me if I wrong?

Needless to say we are using filtered water. TDS is between 78 - 118 depending on which zipcode I enter for our area. Not sure about hardness of water, but we have no scaling anywhere in the house. Even the Brazen shows no sign inside the resevoir like the pictures attached to on one of Joe's replies. There is a slight tan discoloration in one particular area where it seems to heat hotter in that area than the rest of the resevoir, but that's it and not sure if that is normal for the Brazen to have a "hot" spot or not.

So I turned it upside down like TK2 did and flushed the hole out the best I could with the sprayer. I have brewed 2 pots and no leftover water more than normal, but we shall see over the next few days.

I think some of it may be small debris, like a speck of coffee ground or something falling off the lid from laying it on the counter while filling or when you have to tilt it to drain off condensation, something on or in the measuring cup while filling the resevoir, etc. that you don't see. I have found hard specks of coffee or I think its coffee, LOL.. in the resevoir when I went to fill it the next time, thinking how did that get in there.

Going to watch it and see if we have any more problems. I love the coffee it makes and I have a Behmor roaster, also. Will report back if it happens again.

Customer service from Behmor has been excellent as when I had a cooling fan problem on the roaster, they sent the replacement fan immediately, instructions on replacing it, said to call if I needed assisitance and followed up to see if it remedied the problem. I know Joe wants our brewers to work the way he designed them to, so he is doing what is right to fix or remedy the situation, that's all we can ask. Some or most companies these days just say sorry, its the way it is, maybe do this or that and leave you to fix their mistakes.

I just don't see that from Joe and his company. I have faith he will do the right thing for everyone that is having issues with their Brazen brewers.
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a7lewis
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Joined: 29 Jan 2013
Posts: 2
Location: King of Prussia
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Bodum
Drip: Behmor Brazen
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 6:28am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

I bought a Brazen back in mid November.  It ran fine (no extra water not dispensed in the tank) until about Jan 1, when the valve stopped working (it would just make a loud noise but fail to open).  Behmor promptly sent a replacement, which has been fine since.  After reading about the water hardness issue here and debating just trying to descale frequently, I just bought a ZeroWater pitcher.  My TDS level at the tap was higher than the ZeroWater chart predicted, around 400 for water that has gone through a carbon filter and 500 straight.  The ZeroWater filter does its job and brings this down to 0.  I noticed that the Brazen seems to make that roaring boiling noise at lower temperatures the more solids are in the water.

So still early only 1 day after the new filter, but the early signs are good.
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VKirby
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Joined: 16 Mar 2012
Posts: 99
Location: World Wide
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Wed Jan 30, 2013, 9:32am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

onthemoors Said:

TK2

So to be correct and understand, you realize the water you use is the issue and instead of correcting that part of the equation (your water) you blame the equipment. Then when they reinforce the possiblity crappy water could be the cause of a problem, you find cause for that to be an issue for raising that flag.

Understood about cleaning but wouldn't prudence dictate you change the water you use if for no other reason than for your coffee's sake? You'd have a much better cup of coffee and no problem with scaling especially true since you know from being a Bunn technician what bad water does to machine and to coffee in general.

Germantown said it best about using good water you don't need to scale and see where Einstein was right.

Posted January 22, 2013 link


It sounds like he's more so comparing to experience with his other equipment, since using the same water in everything else hasn't been a similar problem for him.  Admitting this difference doesn't make the recommendation to use different water any less valid (since as said there is greater reason to do so aside from just reducing maintenance), but it doesn't look like it's going to be officially acknowledged.  If it were me, instead of trying to shout down & call user error on every report, I'd just admit it, & spin it to my advantage with an analogy to sports cars or something, like high performance machines need high performance fuel etc.  Heck no you can't put TAP WATER in my finely tuned brewer, it would destroy it... requires zero water only!

Consumers would see that as a bragging point, not a fault.



tahoejoe Said:

I'm sorry your are having issues and will wade into this without hopefully pissing people off.

When the brewer was first introduced we shipped units to various people, firms and others throughout the USA, Australia and the UK whether by luck or circumstance not one system had an issue. In cases people used tap water but have learned theirs was naturally soft. They received the same units all customers have. It was only after shiping 1000 into the market a few showed odd characteristics, water staying in the reservoir.

So we replaced brewers at the hint of an issue to bring back in for tear down so we could learn which excatly how all companies learn.

Once we saw that high mineral content water caused scaling in the brewer we then could offer better guidance to include warnings for emails coming into tech about high mineral content water causing scaling. That's being smart and not an indication of widespread issue but rather recognising the limted number of issues we saw/ see included scaling caused by high mineral content water, so why not get people started on correcting the issue and the information needed to understand it.

Here is another fact, we can't stop people from using high mineral content water in the system, no matter what the warning ( ask me about warnings with roasters even on them- ignored) and are now making sure users more aware of the pitfalls of using that type of water along with it's effects on equipment as well as the flavor of their coffee.

Am I happy about this screen getting clogged.. certainly not, but if that screen weren't there we'd have an equal number of people "commenting" how we failed to think about preventing large particulate matter from getting into the system clogging the valve or dispersion disc and I'd be having a similar conversation.

Point is this.. no matter what we do, someone will find cause to "comment" in a negative way. The least we can do and will always do is find solutions to minimize the inconveniences but all equipment has them.. all of them.

By doing teardowns, we found the cause and have offered viable/ working solutions that are better for equipment and your coffee.

As to the numbers.. as of this morning we are still below 3% TOTAL for issues to number of units shipped.



ps: Here is the full (unedited) quote about water in our manual and a link to what moderate tap water residue /sediment leaves in the reservoir:

Water: Wherever possible use high quality filtered water.  Tap water can carry flavors such as chlorine, salts and other minerals found in your local water source. Tap water may require the user to run more frequent cleaning cycles as noted in the “Cleaning and Maintenance” section

http://www.behmor.com/images/combo_of_sediment.jpg

Posted January 22, 2013 link


lol @ the subtle use of quotations.

hey life's a "negative comment", then you die, that's why we get high on coffee  ; )
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harmolodic
Senior Member


Joined: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 128
Location: DC
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Feb 5, 2013, 6:04am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

Got my Brazen last night. (Right now $209.99 on Amazon with free 2-day shipping if you have Amazon Prime).

I'm a long-time Behmor fan. I've used the roaster for around six years (am on my second unit now). I've wanted to buy a Brazen since they hit the market but had just purchased a Bunn Phase Brew a year ago...anyway, last week the Bunn overflowed and in a fit of pique I impulse-purchased the Brazen.

I use a Capresso MT-500 in my office, and had been using the Bunn at home--all with the same home-roasted, fresh beans on a daily basis--so this post will kinda compare the three machines across the same bean. (One cheat is that I used the Brazen metal filter, whereas I'd been using paper in the other two machines. Tomorrow I'll use paper in the Brazen...).

I cleaned and calibrated the Brazen last night. I'm at 300 feet so set it for 250. This morning I ground 65 grams of 5-day-old Guatemala Coban in my Capresso Infinity and ground it slightly coarser than I had yesterday, as I found the Bunn needed a finer grind. I used 6.5 cups of water (after reading about the water hardness issues, I ordered a Zero Water filter, but as it hasn't arrived yet I settled for water from my refrigerator filter unit. That will be rectified tomorrow when the Zero Water filter arrives.)

I set it for a 30-second pre-soak at 204 degrees F and hit start. I observed closely to see if I'd have any bloom/overflow issues, but didn't.

Once brewed I grabbed my favorite cup, carefully poured, and let it cool for maybe 10 seconds. I had just had the same coffee (well, one day younger) the day before, brewed in the Bunn and the Capresso, so I went in knowing what to expect. I was blown away from the first sip. The Brazen seems to have brought out the characteristics that make Coban coffee so great--mildness, a lot of body, an earthiness, kakao...kind of the anti-Huehue, and I love coffees from Huehuetenango as well. But Coban is grown lower in the cloud forest and you can taste it.

It's dramatically better than the same coffee from the other two machines. As I said, I may have fatally skewed my results by using the metal filter; tomorrow I'll rectify that. But I've done a lot of paper vs. metal comparisons before and I don't think that accounts for the dramatic difference.

I should also add that I had none of the other issues with the unit that have been mentioned here, including spilling when pouring. I learned here to pour by inclining the carafe over your cup BEFORE pushing the pour button, and that does the job very well.

I'll be experimenting with grind, pre-soak timing, and water temperature as I go, but I think we nailed it pretty well on the first try...

Job well done, Joe.

And thanks to all of you geeks for providing such good info on a new product.
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efahl
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efahl
Joined: 22 Dec 2011
Posts: 7
Location: Southern California, USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Tue Feb 12, 2013, 8:48am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

tahoejoe Said:

Java.. Short answer is the water will not come out of all the holes simultaneously. What transpires is as water goes into the dispersion disc it gets channeled to holes, as the channel fills water should migrate to other holes.. but you'll never see them all at once.

Posted January 21, 2013 link

My test is not on the source side, but rather the sink side: after the brew has completed, carefully slide out the grounds basket and examine the pattern of water fall on the grounds themselves.  I find that this is much more diagnostic than watching the shower head.
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gilrain
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Joined: 9 Aug 2008
Posts: 18
Location: Murray, KY
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Baratza Encore
Vac Pot: Yama Stovetop
Drip: Broken Brazen
Roaster: Whirly-Pop
Posted Thu Feb 14, 2013, 7:14am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

After all the talk about scale build up and tap water, I feel extremely grateful for the water in my area. In my corner of western KY, the tap water tastes great and the hardness is 7 ppm. As a practical example, I boil water in the same electric kettle every day for several years -- and there isn't even a hint of scale. This isn't to brag, just to note that you don't always have to use filtered water. It's just better to err on the side of caution if you don't know your water hardness.

They say that bourbon whiskey became famous in part due to the water quality of the region, so that makes sense... Move to KY, folks. The culture's a bit down-home, but the water's great! ;)
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Feb 14, 2013, 11:27am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

efahl Said:

My test is not on the source side, but rather the sink side: after the brew has completed, carefully slide out the grounds basket and examine the pattern of water fall on the grounds themselves.  I find that this is much more diagnostic than watching the shower head.

Posted February 12, 2013 link

You can't be talking about the same thing that Joe's talking about.  A person's not going to get a better understanding of the dispersion pattern at the showerhead, without observing the dispersion pattern at the showerhead.
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redkiosk
Senior Member
redkiosk
Joined: 13 May 2012
Posts: 208
Location: Chicago Metro Area
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Illy Francis-Francis X1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso w/ Esatto...
Vac Pot: Someday, very intriguing!
Drip: Trifecta MB, Kalita Wave...
Roaster: A sure path to divorce!
Posted Thu Feb 14, 2013, 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

MJW Said:

A person's not going to get a better understanding of the dispersion pattern at the showerhead, without observing the dispersion pattern at the showerhead.

Posted February 14, 2013 link

I think he's saying that you can tell a lot looking at the dispersion pattern left on the spent grounds. It's kinda' like pi$$ing your name in the snow, the pattern remains long after the liquid has left the storage receptacle. :-)

Take care!

Jim

 
The pathologically precise are annoying, but right!
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