MJW Senior Member Joined: 25 Jul 2012 Posts: 74 Location: Silicon Valley Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Jan 14, 2013, 3:11pm Subject: Re: de-scale procedure
Jim, it may indeed help. But it seems like the valve is designed to have water move one way. I mean, we don't want scale at the bottom to move up into the body.
My understanding is that the screen is there to prevent stuff from getting into the valve body itself, where water takes a pretty tortuous path, and debris / scale can so easily prevent the valve from working.
I think that these valves are used everywhere in e.g. washing machines and dishwashers, and are taking City water unfiltered. I don't immediately know why Brazen's valve might be sensitive, although the other appliances take water that is under line pressure, not gravity. Well, also, perhaps the water is not evaporating in those other applications.
In my case, doing a preventative descale at one month caused water retention. Before that, the unit was operating fine.
From what Joe has said, it seems like the solution is going to involve using "neutral" water that has very low TDS (total dissolved solids). If the Zerowater system, which offers zero TDS water, tastes good in coffee, then that sounds really attractive.
In any case, John Nanci's work on finding a robust descaling procedure that can restore units, is important because most machines are likely to want descaling at some point.
I have descaled my Oscar espresso machine every six months for the last 3.5 years, my water is under 6 grains of hardness (under 3 grains espresso boilers should be fine) enough scale would build up enough to have to increase the boiler temp/pressure to compensate, if I have to do a second adjustment I have waited to long for a descale. In my learning curve of descaling my machine I have had large flakes of scale clog valves which restricted flow by more then 3/4 because I was not running enough solution through the HX system to disolve the scale.
IMO if you are running citric acid through multiple times and it is not dissolving the clog then the clog is not scale. My Britta filter will let small pieces of charcoal get into the drinking reservoir, I have found it floating around the Brazen reservoir multiple times, I stopped using the Britta and now use my fridge filtered water to avoid a blockage.
I was wondering when someone would get around to posting it again Rob! Glad you did as after reading the flurry of posts about the proper concentration of a citric acid solution, I was going to soon.
Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013, 3:58pm Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
From published data, York Region (a suburb of Toronto, Canada) supplies water with a hardness of 6 grains per USG.
It makes sense that espresso machines that raise steam up to 5 or 6 bars (?) and use it to make micro foam should have Ca/Mg deposits that need to be removed, from time to time.
I have had a Krups Moka Brew coffee-machine now three years and have made hundreds of pots of coffee. And it does so at 2 or 3 bars (?) of pressure.
When I disassemble it for filling see a flat reservoir around 3 inches high with a BIG filling hole (say) 5 inches in diameter. I inspected it this morning. It has never been cleaned. I can see all the SS surfaces and the big SS heating coil with only a thin beige coating that I suppose is hardness deposit. There are no debris of any kind on the bottom. Not one crumb that would invite me to do a citric acid cleaning.
I know the 'hardness' is in the water. I clean my Air-O-Swiss Humidifier every 2 weeks. I clean my Panasonic Hot-Pot every 2 months (both with citric acid solution). But a coffee-maker with little or no sustained boiling ...?!
My question is: Are we pursuing the wrong root cause?
yakster Senior Member Joined: 25 Feb 2009 Posts: 1,006 Location: San Jose, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Factory / La Peppina... Grinder: Vario / Kyocera Vac Pot: Yama 8 + Pyrex Lox-in Rod Drip: Brazen / Kalita / Chemex /... Roaster: Behmor
Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013, 4:43pm Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
Jerry,
Is the water heated in the reservoir of the Krups Moka Brew or is it heated after that point? You wouldn't see much scaling in the reservoir if the water is not heated at that point.
In the BraZen, the water is heated in the fill reservoir instead of a point after that.
Yes, over the years I've posted the Lake Ontario Water Mineral Analysis chart 1983/85 water data sheet & 9.5 grains per Imperial gallon for the measurement back in the day then.
I have had a Krups Moka Brew coffee-machine now three years and have made hundreds of pots of coffee. And it does so at 2 or 3 bars (?) of pressure.
According to Mark Prince site owner it's 1.2 bars.
I know the 'hardness' is in the water. I clean my Air-O-Swiss Humidifier every 2 weeks. I clean my Panasonic Hot-Pot every 2 months (both with citric acid solution). But a coffee-maker with little or no sustained boiling ...?! My question is: Are we pursuing the wrong root cause?
What we're concerned with is the water salts of permanent hardness, not so much salts of temporary hardness. It'd take me too long to type it out, so I'll try to link to the chart on the CG forums & I think I have a full explanation there.. My notes are on the 1983 chart. If your water is brought to a hard boil (can't remember the time period, ˝hr or so?) & is allowed to cool down & then decanted, the temporary hardness expressed as (CaCO3 Calcium Carbonate {alkaline salt}) will be precipatated out in the order of 30 - 40%.
Yakster Said:
Is the water heated in the reservoir of the Krups Moka Brew or is it heated after that point.
Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013, 5:32pm Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
yakster Said:
Jerry,
Is the water heated in the reservoir of the Krups Moka Brew or is it heated after that point? You wouldn't see much scaling in the reservoir if the water is not heated at that point.
In the BraZen, the water is heated in the fill reservoir instead of a point after that.
I also have a Krups Moka Brew. The water is heated within the reservoir. And then the pressurized water travels up through pipes to the grounds basket.
IMAWriter Senior Member Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 5,464 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Nothing at the moment Grinder: Vario-W,Preciso-Esatto/KyM... Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup Drip: Brazen.Chemex, Hario, Clever... Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Tue Jan 15, 2013, 5:32pm Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
Wow. Sorry a few of you are having an issue. My water is tuned to 75ppm for my drip, and 125 for taste in my vac pots. I've had absolutely NO problem with residue, slow pots, or water retention at the top (other than maybe 30ml tops)
As an experiment, perhaps try shortening the Presoak to 30 seconds, if only to change a parameter. I'm scratching my head trying to figure it out. I assume all the other parameters are set...altitude being one of them. Being perhaps less mechanically inclined than others, I'm stumped. With roasters and grinders, voltage is part of the equation. Not sure if lack of proper voltage would affect the output of the BraZen. I wouldn't think so. Time for me to shut up. :>D
roastmybeans Senior Member Joined: 24 Oct 2012 Posts: 7 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Drip: Chemex, Brazen Roaster: Nesco
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 3:09pm Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
another Brazen user with similar issues mentioned here - water left in the top.. an inch or so
yes I descaled ( several times ) CLR yes it has been working fine no I don't use lab grade reverse osmosis 0 ppm water manual release after the cycle does drain it with top off... perhaps the vac issue? dumping the water out by tipping the unit caused water to kill my 'beep after done' not looking forward to expensive shipping costs... those that had to send back did they cover costs?
Posted Fri Jan 18, 2013, 3:21pm Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
IMAWriter Said:
Wow. Sorry a few of you are having an issue. My water is tuned to 75ppm for my drip, and 125 for taste in my vac pots. I've had absolutely NO problem with residue, slow pots, or water retention at the top (other than maybe 30ml tops)
I'm sorry to hear this too Rob! I don't have any issues at all, & one can see by my water chart link above., I have moderately hard water at 9.5 grains (Clarkes Degrees) per Imperial gallon. In my old "The Big Book of Brewing" by David Line, water between 7 - 14 gpg (grains per Imp gallon) is classified as medium soft! {:-O
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