Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Coffee: Machines and Brewing Methods
Temperature
Find the Right Machine...
Package deals on the best machines from Izzo, Quick Mill, Rocket, La Marzocco & more.
www.clivecoffee.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Coffee > Machines > Temperature  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 2 of 3 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
CheapBastid
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Dec 2012
Posts: 73
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: None
Grinder: Infinity - talking myself...
Vac Pot: None
Drip: Mr Coffee
Roaster: None
Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 11:43am
Subject: Re: Temperature and Immersion/Steep Brewing
 

Netphilosopher Said:

-Take a sample of your coffee, evaporate the water, and measure the residual mass left behind.  Think of this as a more direct measurement of Total Solids - but keep in mind that if it comes from a sample that hasn't been well-filtered, it might contain a small amount of UNDISSOLVED solids too.

Posted January 18, 2013 link

I'd be concerned about volatile oils etc. that are evaporated off with this method.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Netphilosopher
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Jan 19, 2013, 3:31pm
Subject: ...
 

...
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
squaremile
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Portlandia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Jan 26, 2013, 10:59pm
Subject: Re: Temperature and Immersion/Steep Brewing
 

Netphilosopher, how are you measuring strength? Are you taking TDS readings from a refractometer here?

Also, I'm trying to work out your formula. I think I saw a post awhile back where you were basically doing

Ext = TDS * grams of water poured in / grams of ground coffee

So today I made a CCD: 1.275*185/12=19.65

I'm not following the new one, can you clarify?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Netphilosopher
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 8:55am
Subject: ...
 

...
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
squaremile
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Portlandia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 8:20pm
Subject: Re: Temperature and Immersion/Steep Brewing
 

So when I look at Vince's talk and slides from NBC2012, here is what you would get from my readings from an immersion brewer like the CCD:

Brew Water: 185g
Dose: 12g
TDS: 1.27
Bev Wt: 155g
-------------------------
Liq Retained: 30g (Water - Bev Wt)
Solute in Bev: 1.96 (TDS*Bev Wt)
Solute in Ret: .38 (TDS*Liq Ret)
Total Solute: 2.35 (Sol in Bev + Sol in Ret, or Brew Water*TDS)
Ext Yield: 19.58% (Total Sol/Dose)

Your formula with my numbers gives 19.58 as well in the numerator, but the denomenator being there at all doesn't make sense "/(1-S)" because 1 - 1.27 = -.27. Therefore 19.5/-.27 is a meaningless number (-72.22). What am I missing?

Also if I'm looking at your numbers, I think you have a mistake where you are dividing the TDS by the weight of brewed beverage, rather than multiplying. It doesn't make sense to have a total dissolved solids reading and then divide that number by the water, you should be multiplying to know the total solute in the beverage.

Also since in immersion brewing you don't even need to calculate the liquid retained to get the Extraction Yield because ALL of the brew water is technically brewed coffee. So it therefore goes back to the formula I was running: TDS*Brew Water/Dose or 1.27*185/12=19.58.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 712
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Mon Jan 28, 2013, 8:58pm
Subject: Re: Temperature and Immersion/Steep Brewing
 

"Liq Retained: 30g (Water - Bev Wt)" -- that is the error.

You need to consider both the water and the coffee in each step. From your own calculation the beverage contains 2 grams of solubles in 155 grams total. So there is 153 grams of water and 2 grams of coffee solubles in the beverage. From the initial 185 grams of water that means there is 32 (185-153) grams of water is in the grounds. So the "liquid retained" cannot be 30 grams. It's 32 grams plus approximately 1.27%, roughly 32.4 grams.

Work through the math again, carefully, and you'll see where the 1/(1-s) factor comes from.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
squaremile
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Portlandia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:20am
Subject: Re: Temperature and Immersion/Steep Brewing
 

OK that makes sense. However, if I recalculate the numbers based on what you are saying, I get this:

Brew Water: 185g
Dose: 12g
TDS: 1.27%
Bev Wt: 155g
--------------------------------------
Liquid Retained: 32.37 (Brew Water - Bev Wt + Sol in Bev + Sol in Ret) so (185 - 155 + 1.97 + .41)
Solute in Bev: 1.97 (Bev Wt * TDS / 100) so (155 * 1.27 / 100)
Solute in Ret: .41 ((Brew Water - Bev Wt + Sol in Bev) * TDS / 100) so ((185 - 155 + 1.97) * 1.27 / 100)
Total Solute: 2.38 (Sol in Bev + Sol in Ret) so (1.97 + .41)
Ext Yield: 19.83% (Total Sol / Dose * 100) so (2.38 / 12 * 100)

Which is a difference, so thank you, but it is somewhat small and does not explain the denomenator. If you check Vince's calculations on his slides from NBC2012, for immersion brewing extraction yield you can see him do 13.7/60*100=22.8 in the over-extracted cup, and then 13.7/68.2*100=20.08 for the properly extracted. For mine that would be 2.38/12=19.83%. Why do I need /1-S?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 712
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 10:42am
Subject: Re: Temperature and Immersion/Steep Brewing
 

That slide from Vince's presentation shows that extraction = TDS/coffee, but it doesn't show how TDS is calculated in the first place.

The easiest way to calculate the immersion extraction is to forget about the beverage and retained water and just measure the total brew water.

TDS = %TDS * TotalLiquid = %TDS * (BrewWater + TDS)

It's true that this is only about 1% difference (for this brew) over assuming that TotalLiquid = BrewWater. But it's an easy 1%. Why measure TDS% so precisely and then toss some of that away? Speaking of which, your numbers make it appear that you are measuring water, dose, and beverage weights to a resolution of only 1 gram. If true that would be a much bigger problem.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Netphilosopher
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jan 2011
Posts: 1,602
Location: USA
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 11:29am
Subject: ...
 

...
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
squaremile
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Jan 2011
Posts: 86
Location: Portlandia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Jan 29, 2013, 12:01pm
Subject: Re: Temperature and Immersion/Steep Brewing
 

Ha! Yes, 1.27% from a refractometer. I should have made the clear, duh! Sorry for the confusion :)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 2 of 3 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Coffee > Machines > Temperature  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Support Coffee Kids
Coffee Kids is a non profit charity working with farming communities around the world. Donate today!
www.coffeekids.org
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.267339944839)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+