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Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
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Discussions > Coffee > Machines > Now we know what...  
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onthemoors
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Joined: 6 Sep 2009
Posts: 106
Location: Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Zassenhaus
Drip: Bunn
Roaster: Hottop, Behmor
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:11am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

TK2

So to be correct and understand, you realize the water you use is the issue and instead of correcting that part of the equation (your water) you blame the equipment. Then when they reinforce the possiblity crappy water could be the cause of a problem, you find cause for that to be an issue for raising that flag.

Understood about cleaning but wouldn't prudence dictate you change the water you use if for no other reason than for your coffee's sake? You'd have a much better cup of coffee and no problem with scaling especially true since you know from being a Bunn technician what bad water does to machine and to coffee in general.

Germantown said it best about using good water you don't need to scale and see where Einstein was right.
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frcn
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frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
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Location: Northern California
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Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
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Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:28am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

I wonder if it is truly a scale problem or is it sediment or other particulate matter in your water? it would seem that if you are having such serious scaling problems that it would show with faucet scale buildup, scaling on showers and tubs, etc.

 
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onthemoors
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Sep 2009
Posts: 106
Location: Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Zassenhaus
Drip: Bunn
Roaster: Hottop, Behmor
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:33am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

frcn Said:

I wonder if it is truly a scale problem or is it sediment or other particulate matter in your water? it would seem that if you are having such serious scaling problems that it would show with faucet scale buildup, scaling on showers and tubs, etc.

Posted January 22, 2013 link

Good points which makes the continued use of that source of water all the more confusing.
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TK2FAST
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TK2FAST
Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 15
Location: PHOENIX AZ
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 11:50am
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

Yes I agree and do realize the water is causing most of the problem, but my issue is the relatively small amount of "tap" water that can cause problems in the Brazen when compared to other machines. There is not any other coffee maker that I know of that would have problems with mineral buildup with so little use as this one. That's my only point.

An example is my wife. Previous to knowing her she had a Cusinart coffee machine for 12 years, which using the same water now never cleaned it and was working fine when I suggested we get a Brazen which would make better coffee, which it does. The Brazen manual says "whenever possible use filtered water" which we try to do but do not  always have it on hand. It should say YOU MUST USE FILTERED WATER. The tap water here is moderate.  

Not trying to argue here but one must admit that this machine is extremely prone to mineral or debris clogging the micro screen.
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tahoejoe
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Joined: 9 Sep 2003
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Location: San Diego/ Incline Village Nv.
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Grinder: Solis Maestro
Drip: Behmor Brazen Brew System
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:25pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

TK2FAST Said:

Yes I agree and do realize the water is causing the problem, but my issue is the relatively small amount of "tap" water that can cause problems in the Brazen when compared to other machines. There is not any other coffee maker that I know of that would have problems with mineral buildup with so little use as this one. That's my only point.

An example is my wife. Previous to knowing her she had a Cusinart coffee machine for 12 years, which using the same water now never cleaned it and was working fine when I suggested we get a Brazen which would make better coffee, which it does. The Brazen manual says "whenever possible use filtered water" which I try to do but my wife does not always do that because we do not always have it on hand. It should say YOU MUST USE FILTERED WATER.

Not trying to argue here but one must admit that this machine is extremely prone to mineral or debris clogging the micro screen.

Posted January 22, 2013 link

I'm sorry your are having issues and will wade into this without hopefully pissing people off.

When the brewer was first introduced we shipped units to various people, firms and others throughout the USA, Australia and the UK whether by luck or circumstance not one system had an issue. In cases people used tap water but have learned theirs was naturally soft. They received the same units all customers have. It was only after shiping 1000 into the market a few showed odd characteristics, water staying in the reservoir.

So we replaced brewers at the hint of an issue to bring back in for tear down so we could learn which excatly how all companies learn.

Once we saw that high mineral content water caused scaling in the brewer we then could offer better guidance to include warnings for emails coming into tech about high mineral content water causing scaling. That's being smart and not an indication of widespread issue but rather recognising the limted number of issues we saw/ see included scaling caused by high mineral content water, so why not get people started on correcting the issue and the information needed to understand it.

Here is another fact, we can't stop people from using high mineral content water in the system, no matter what the warning ( ask me about warnings with roasters even on them- ignored) and are now making sure users more aware of the pitfalls of using that type of water along with it's effects on equipment as well as the flavor of their coffee.

Am I happy about this screen getting clogged.. certainly not, but if that screen weren't there we'd have an equal number of people "commenting" how we failed to think about preventing large particulate matter from getting into the system clogging the valve or dispersion disc and I'd be having a similar conversation.

Point is this.. no matter what we do, someone will find cause to "comment" in a negative way. The least we can do and will always do is find solutions to minimize the inconveniences but all equipment has them.. all of them.

By doing teardowns, we found the cause and have offered viable/ working solutions that are better for equipment and your coffee.

As to the numbers.. as of this morning we are still below 3% TOTAL for issues to number of units shipped.



ps: Here is the full (unedited) quote about water in our manual and a link to what moderate tap water residue /sediment leaves in the reservoir:

Water: Wherever possible use high quality filtered water.  Tap water can carry flavors such as chlorine, salts and other minerals found in your local water source. Tap water may require the user to run more frequent cleaning cycles as noted in the “Cleaning and Maintenance” section

http://www.behmor.com/images/combo_of_sediment.jpg

 
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onthemoors
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Joined: 6 Sep 2009
Posts: 106
Location: Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Zassenhaus
Drip: Bunn
Roaster: Hottop, Behmor
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 12:30pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

YOU MUST USE FILTERED WATER.

Would it have mattered if Joe had included your warning? Considering your continued use of tap water I think the answer is obvious.
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TK2FAST
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TK2FAST
Joined: 23 Jan 2009
Posts: 15
Location: PHOENIX AZ
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 2:34pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

Thank you for the response Joe. You have worked hard on this machine and it does the job well. It just does not do well with any tap water. The Behmor name stands for integrity and that's why I pre-ordered a Brazen.

I know many here view my comments as negative and so be it. It's not meant to be but from the responses I received...

It's not about a warning! No it would not have mattered "if Joe included MY warning." (not the point)
It's not about tap water...  I get it --- Don't use tap water -use filtered water stupid.

I was trying to share "real life" experience with the Brazen and yes that included using tap water at times. Shame on me for sharing my experience about the Brazen. Obviously I am a minority. Looks like most who purchase this machine are "coffee connoisseurs" and always use filtered water.
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,249
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
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Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
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Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 3:14pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

TK2FAST Said:

Obviously I am a minority. Looks like most who purchase this machine are "coffee connoisseurs" and always use filtered water.

Posted January 22, 2013 link

Just to let you know Terry, I only use tap water & have never had one problem..

 
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CraigA
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CraigA
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 11,249
Location: Rexdale, Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: PID/PressureMod 2001...
Grinder: BUNN FPG-2 DBC, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Bodum Santos manual, Yama 5...
Drip: Behmor BraZen, BUNN VPR-APS,...
Roaster: Refurb Behmor 1600, BBQ...
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 3:18pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

JKalpin Said:

However, Craig, in a coffee-maker the water may boil for a few minutes (surely not half an hour) and then it proceeds to brew the coffee without cooling down until it is in the carafe, whereupon we ...drink it... CACO3 and all.  The permanent hardness will surely come out in an espresso boiler where we maintain steam for much longer, boil water to make micro foam, etc.

Posted January 18, 2013 link

What I inferred/meant by my post Jerry was that if one was to boil their Toronto water & let cool & use that decanted water, it would contain 30 - 40% less bicarbonates..

So overall total hardness expressed as grains per gallon would be lowered by that 30 - 40%, so in my case 9.5 x 30%  (9.50 - 2.85) = 6.65    9.5 x 40%  (9.5 - 3.8) = 5.7.

My range after boiling would be approximately 5.7 - 6.65 gpg instead of raw tap water at 9.5 gpg. Easy enough to convert to mg/l (ppm).

 
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TK2FAST
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TK2FAST
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Posted Tue Jan 22, 2013, 4:01pm
Subject: Re: Now we know what GORT is (Behmor BraZen Brewer)
 

Thanks CraigA for the input. I felt like one of the few that actually used tap water sometimes. It is interesting though, that you have had no problems. After I cleaned the machine it still was over 3 minutes to drain the reservoir.  It was not until after turning the machine upside down and using the sink sprayer to clean out the micro screen was I able to get it back down under 3 minutes, so that screen must be catching other particulate matter. My point is the screen is doing it's job but the surface area is small so it clogs quickly, at least in my case.
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