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Discussions > Coffee > Machines > Coffee ratios  
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Mon Apr 21, 2014, 3:02pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

MWJB Said:

Well, I don't know what Niven used, I suggested a percolator simply because you were under the impression a finished brew wouldn't be at "brew temp" (slurry)...it can, or thereabouts (...and because percolators were very common at the time). So assumptions based purely on a perceived temp are shaky.

A percolator can conceivably use the same chart as a drip brewer...at least, as likely as two different drip brewers using the same chart anyway.

Posted April 21, 2014 link

What I said was that for drip brewing the finished coffee is never just below the boiling temperature.

I think you're wrong about using the same chart for percolators. It may be conceivable that it was done but that doesn't make it correct any more than it would have been to use it for a press pot or Aeropress brew.
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MWJB
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Tue Apr 22, 2014, 1:17am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

jpender Said:

What I said was that for drip brewing the finished coffee is never just below the boiling temperature.

I think you're wrong about using the same chart for percolators. It may be conceivable that it was done but that doesn't make it correct any more than it would have been to use it for a press pot or Aeropress brew.

Posted April 21, 2014 link

I'm not wrong about the percolator issue, the chart can conceivably be used for press pot, even for Aeropress (in fact it's possible to make Aeropress & the chart tally pretty closely), Clever, Vac pot...if you use it in the manner they intended. It won't be totally accurate, but good enough for their intended purpose...the thing you have to realise is that the chart can only be totally accurate in circumstances too specific to be regarded as typical.

However, for steeped methods the concept of extraction yield isn't the most telling with regards to flavour balance, hence we now have VST's immersion yield.

Extraction yield is an identifiable parameter, if it's accurate everyone comes up with the same answer...as long as everything is measured, not implied and each protocol is consistent. The chart strikes me as being designed to negate the need for constant calculations with every brew...aim for the middle for best odds of a good cup. If you designed the chart, you know how to get an accurate extrapolation, you don't need the chart (as you are seeing with Lockhart's paper)...it's a method to convey (reasonable) best practice to those who don't want to calculate.

Really, get the VST software, things will fall into place & many of your queries will be answered.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Tue Apr 22, 2014, 9:58am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

MWJB Said:

However, for steeped methods the concept of extraction yield isn't the most telling with regards to flavour balance, hence we now have VST's immersion yield.

Posted April 22, 2014 link

That's right. And it isn't just an odd correlation. It makes perfect sense to include the dissolved solids retrained in the grounds. They will be very close to full strength and of the same balance of compounds. In contrast, the brewing control chart (or Mojo equivalent) assumes that the liquid in the grounds should be excluded. If you use the chart for an immersion brew you'll get an extraction yield instead of the extraction and typically they differ by ~2-3%.

It's exactly the same issue with a percolator.
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jpender
Senior Member
jpender
Joined: 11 Jul 2011
Posts: 705
Location: California
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: OE LIDO
Vac Pot: S/S Moka Pot
Drip: Aeropress
Posted Tue Apr 22, 2014, 10:15am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

MWJB Said:

Really, get the VST software, things will fall into place & many of your queries will be answered.

Posted April 22, 2014 link

I understand very well what Mojo does (I could write out the equations) and it can't answer history questions. And percolators are not directly addressed in Mojo. I remember in Vince's talk he explicitly excluded the percolator as a brew device to be considered.
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,276
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Tue Apr 22, 2014, 11:30am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

jpender Said:

I understand very well what Mojo does (I could write out the equations)...

Posted April 22, 2014 link

Uh oh.  Expect an email demanding you commit seppuku with a bamboo spoon.

Yours in (f)0.17,
Rich
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MWJB
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Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Tue Apr 22, 2014, 1:53pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Uh oh.  Expect an email demanding you commit seppuku with a bamboo spoon.

Yours in (f)0.17,
Rich

Posted April 22, 2014 link

According to Wikipedia, "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion."
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dana_leighton
Moderator
dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 1,944
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Tue Apr 22, 2014, 9:31pm
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

MWJB Said:

According to Wikipedia, "In Internet slang, a troll is a person who..."

Posted April 22, 2014 link

Leaving aside the veracity of Wikipedia, are you serious?!? Or, is your post satirical? :-)

If you really thought that was trolling, you might want to take on moderating an internet forum for a while to see what rolling really is.

Besides, didn't you get one of Vince's cease-and-desist emails?!?
(EDIT) note: the above statement is currently an unsubstantiated rumor that I have been informed by an interested party (he-who-must-not-be-named) is "99.9%" fabricated. Drink with the appropriate amount of salt (or saltpeter perhaps).

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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MWJB
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Joined: 1 Jun 2013
Posts: 186
Location: UK
Expertise: I like coffee

Grinder: Rocky, Lido, Porlex, Hario...
Drip: Not enough room to list...
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 4:26am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

dana_leighton Said:

Leaving aside the veracity of Wikipedia, are you serious?!? Or, is your post satirical? :-)

If you really thought that was trolling, you might want to take on moderating an internet forum for a while to see what rolling really is.

Besides, didn't you get one of Vince's cease-and-desist emails?!?

Posted April 22, 2014 link

No, I never received a cease & desist from VST/Vince, nor did he initiate any contact with me. When I decided that I needed to establish for myself the difference between what actually was an IP infringement and what was conjecture/rumour/hearsay/urban myth, I contacted Vince myself, calling transatalantic, on my buck.

Rich's comment was not persuant to the discussion, it was off-topic & purely intended to promote ill feeling.

I have great respect for people who give up their time & energy to moderate forums, but we're coffee enthusiasts, not experts on every aspect of coffee, nor lawyers, so determining what does & doesn't require moderating (technically, or legally) must be very difficult. From 1st hand experience, I can tell you that I was lulled into a false sense of security regarding the extent of my activities in this matter & this was largely due to a lack of effective moderation & due to incorrect assumptions frequently aired on this & other forums...monkey see, monkey do.

This isn't an attack, or criticism of any individual moderator as the issue at hand is complex, but is moderation really moderation if it promotes a bias? It sometimes seems to me you can say what you like if your views coincide with the personal views of site owners/moderators, irrespective of best practice? Look at this thread, Rich trolls, I point it out, you pick me up on pointing it out?

Surely people come here to learn & share their thoughts & learnings about coffee, not personal politics.
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,276
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 5:52am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

(... snip ... EDIT ... snip....)

On reconsideration, Mark's ill-considered accusation is not worth anything beyond res ipsa loquitur.

Rich
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dana_leighton
Moderator
dana_leighton
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 1,944
Location: Fayetteville, AR
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Isomac Relax; Caferina...
Grinder: Macap MXK; Baratza Vario-W;...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: Technivorm; CCD; Melitta
Roaster: Poppery I w/PID controller
Posted Wed Apr 23, 2014, 10:57am
Subject: Re: Coffee ratios
 

MWJB Said:

determining what does & doesn't require moderating (technically, or legally) must be very difficult.

Posted April 23, 2014 link

Actually it's pretty easy. There is very little room for interpretation. If a poster violates the rules, we delete and (sometimes) issue a strike. If not, we leave it there. If a thread gets out of hand, we lock it. It's pretty simple.

...is moderation really moderation if it promotes a bias? It sometimes seems to me you can say what you like if your views coincide with the personal views of site owners/moderators, irrespective of best practice?

I don't think that anyone ever claimed to have unbiased moderation. None of us can claim to not exhibit bias in any of our daily activities (I can provide references to the research literature demonstrating this, but neither I nor you have time for that). However, the rules do help to reduce the bias if we interpret them strictly, which we often do, much to the consternation of some easily irritable members.

Look at this thread, Rich trolls, I point it out, you pick me up on pointing it out?

Well, in this case, I was posting personally, not as a moderator. If I was posting in my moderator role, I would tell you that. However, There was no such troll. It was humor. If you want to construe it as trolling for whatever personal motive, that's fine, and certainly your prerogative to post such a posting, and you're not breaking any rules by doing so. But it's also my prerogative as a fellow member to illustrate that your post was ironic as it was, itself, "trolling" as defined in the Wikipedia entry you quoted.

Absurdity ad-infinitum.

 
Dana Leighton - Espresso hack and CoffeeGeek moderator
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