glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 12:04am Subject: Weighing the dose
How important is it to weight the dose? I'm using a Vario and have been using the following method: - Fill the pf - Tap it a few times on a matt - Fill the pf again and level off - Tamp
What is the weight I'm looking for for a double shot? I always thought the key was to fill enough coffee into the PF and tamp slightly below the crevice within the PF.
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 5:36am Subject: Re: Weighing the dose
I prefer to weigh the dose - but I believe what is more important is repeatability. Can you dose it exactly the same each time?
For me, weighing makes it easier because I'm only pulling a shot or two for myself and I weigh the beans going into my grinder and then sweep it clean. But I think if you leave the beans in the hopper and grind into your PF your technique is fine. I've read plenty of posts by well respected people who dose by volume rather than weight - but there are plenty of others that say you must weigh (with a 1/10th gram scale no less) to get repeatability.
Every basket is different and machines are different (if the group gasket is thicker or thinner, new or worn) for how deeply the shower screen goes into your basket when you lock the PF. I find I get the best shots when the tamped coffee is just enough below the screen that it doesn't touch (when it is dry) - but that after the shot the coffee has expanded just enough that I can see a faint imprint of the shower screen in the surface. If the dose is too high, the coffee expands and compresses into the shower screen and the pour is really slow because the coffee has no room to expand. For my particular basket and one particular machine that dose happens to be 17 grams - but same PF and basket on another machine (thicker gasket?) I have to use 18.5 grams to get the coffee to expand to the screen.
I say if it tastes good then you're doing it right.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,605 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 5:56am Subject: Re: Weighing the dose
Weighing your dose is all about consistency.
You can only achieve reproducible espresso quality by controlling the different factors that influence it and by trying to keep the important ones constant. For example, it'll be very hard to dial in your grinder correctly, if your dose changes slightly from shot to shot, because the amount of coffee in your filter basket is one of the many variables, besides grinding and tamping, that influence extraction time.
However, when you watch a professional barista work, you'll hardly find one that uses a scale each and every time he or she brews an espresso. One reason might be that they use a timed grinder. But most of all, I believe, it's experience. They know just by looking at the filled portafilter if the dose is right.
Myself, having a little experience as a home barista, I only weigh my dose occasionally (for example, when I change beans). My rule of thumb goes like this: I fill the basket until there's a small heap, so that after levelling the basket is full to the rim. That's when I tamp. Once I actually weighed a larger series like that and usually came within 0,1 to 0,2 g of the desired dose.
But when you start meaking espresso at home, I strongly advise using a digital scale.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
mitch236 Senior Member Joined: 7 Nov 2003 Posts: 64 Location: Delray Beach Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Linea Single Group (PID,... Grinder: Mazzer Robur E
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 6:13am Subject: Re: Weighing the dose
I weigh every dose and extraction. Since I don't work professionally I have the time. I can tell you there is a noticable difference in the cup when the dose is changed by a couple of tenths of a gram. There isn't as much of a difference in the cup on the brewing side but a gram or two definately makes a difference. Once you get in the habit of weighing both the dose and the shot, it really doesn't take much more time and for me at least, is much more repeatable than watching the pour for blonding (which I believe only a few people can do accurately).
Professionals are pulling tens, if not hundreds of shots a day, many days each week for most of every year. If they aspire to be good, they will develop skills that the home barista can't. Also, most professionals are using the best equipment (like RoburE's) which really help consistency.
If you are trying to improve, start with weighing every shot and dose.
Agreed. Weighing the dose and not the extraction is like bird with one long wing and one short one. He still looks like bird but he just goes in circles.
So for walk up espresso (grind, tamp, pull and drink) I buy 5 lbs at the time and freeze in patches small enough that I have to thaw beans every day. It's minor PTA and not very green because i have to use zip lock bags but there is a huge upshot. The upshot is I don't chase my grinder as much as if I thawed enough for 2 - 3 days at once. That translates to my weighing the dose while I dial in a new 5 lbs patch up front then only occasionally as i work through the 5 lbs batch. Once dialed I know that my dose is going to weigh 19. 2 (+ / - .2) in my VST 18 basket. I scale the nearly every extraction at 38 grams and know that i am in the ball park on my ratio.
This is a good read on weight and extraction ratio click here
If I am feeling crafty and have the time to play then all bets are off as to the type of bean, grinder and I weigh everything to the point of OCD.
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
emradguy Senior Member Joined: 31 Mar 2011 Posts: 1,698 Location: Houston Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: MacapM4T, Macap M4, OE Lido,... Drip: Espro press; Aeropress Roaster: internet
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 11:27am Subject: Re: Weighing the dose
yeah, if you have a good scale, it's easy to weigh your shots. I weigh mine occasionally. If I find I'm drifting, I go back and re-calibrate my technique.
Here's the scale I bought. It's less than $35, I got great service from the company and the scale has a 5 year manufacturer warranty...
glcoffee Senior Member Joined: 15 Feb 2012 Posts: 67 Location: Los Angeles, CA & Taiwan Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Izzo Alex II Grinder: Vario Drip: Hario V60
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 1:45pm Subject: Re: Weighing the dose
jwoodyu Said:
Agreed. Weighing the dose and not the extraction is like bird with one long wing and one short one. He still looks like bird but he just goes in circles.
So for walk up espresso (grind, tamp, pull and drink) I buy 5 lbs at the time and freeze in patches small enough that I have to thaw beans every day. It's minor PTA and not very green because i have to use zip lock bags but there is a huge upshot. The upshot is I don't chase my grinder as much as if I thawed enough for 2 - 3 days at once. That translates to my weighing the dose while I dial in a new 5 lbs patch up front then only occasionally as i work through the 5 lbs batch. Once dialed I know that my dose is going to weigh 19. 2 (+ / - .2) in my VST 18 basket. I scale the nearly every extraction at 38 grams and know that i am in the ball park on my ratio.
This is a good read on weight and extraction ratio click here
If I am feeling crafty and have the time to play then all bets are off as to the type of bean, grinder and I weigh everything to the point of OCD.
If I am reading this correctly, the magic numbers for a regular espresso is 16grams of coffee to produce a volume of 2-3oz fluid?
I am using my standard double PF that came with my IZZO Alex II, I believe its a 58mm pressurized.
“Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again.” C.S. Lewis, The World's Last Night ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------ I am Taiwanese.
So I do everything in by weight in grams on a scale. 16 gram dose and 32 gram yeild should equal a regular espresso about 50% brew ratio. All things being equal it should take around 25 seconds to pull that 32 grams and blond about the time your draw hits 32 grams. The trick is in the "all things being equal". If you want more precise brew ratios I think you have to go to rafracto meter or some way to messure total desolved solids blah blah blah.
I have a Duetto and Lewis is one of my favorite writters. :)
You know those people that want to tell you how to raise your kids but have none of their own? That is how i feel when someone with a kitchen appliance tells me how the merits or dis-merits of my machine or how to use it.
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 5:50pm Subject: Re: Weighing the dose
I will repeat myself that every basket is different. You can buy a 7 gram, 9 gram, 12 gram, 14 gram, 18 gram, 20 gram, 22 gram etc etc. sized basket ..... and you can get two different 14 gram baskets that are not the same (in fact getting two that are the same would be the exception in my experience).
The "official" or classic rule is 6-7 grams for single and 12-14 for a double. Here is a link Click Here (www.home-barista.com) and I find the same info at many other sources. Here is an excerpt from that link: The nominal doses for espresso are 6 to 7 grams for a single and 12 to 14 grams for a double. Recently, many cafés have raised dose sizes to 8 to 10 grams for a single and 16 to 20 grams for a double. Whatever the dose, consistency is the key. Weighing the grinds is accurate but time consuming, so using the same volume each time is the most popular choice for dosing.
But I find that I get better luck dosing so the coffee fits correctly in the particular basket I am using in the particular PF/Machine I am using. For any particular basket/PF/Machine, I believe there is a sweet spot where the coffee fits perfectly between the filter holes at the bottom of the basket and the filter holes in the shower screen. If I prefer a larger dose - my personal choice would be to use a basket that gives me that perfect fit with the larger dose. If I prefer a smaller dose - I would use a smaller basket so I still get that perfect fit.
But that's just me ... looks like everyone else is keen on a specific gram dose regardless of what equipment you use.
Posted Wed Mar 14, 2012, 5:54pm Subject: Re: Weighing the dose
I gather that there are essentially two schools of thought (more or less - I'm ignoring the obvious shades of gray).
"Precision" extraction - weigh everything to the tenth of a gram, time everything to the tenth of a second. Measure the results with a refractometer. Eventually, taste your espresso and see if you like it.
"Feel" the shot - grind to fill the basket, level and tamp, pull your shot "for effect" (that is, watch the extraction, the color, etc) and taste it. Make adjustments. After all, those "Precision" dudes are tasting and adjusting reactively anyway - why go through all the science? It's an art.
I think the precision approach can be immensely revelatory, and some will say repeatability is impossible any other way. I think there's something to be said for a barista who has his routine figured out and knows his rig well enough that he can "just pull a great shot" without much fuss.
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