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dino823
Senior Member


Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Warragul
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 5:09am
Subject: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

Hi everyone. my name is Dino and I am new to the website. I stumbled across the site while I was looking for some information regarding my new Quick Mill machine.

This is the machine I have just bought for my restaurant >>> Click Here (www.quickmill.it)

For the past three years I had a 3 group WEGA machine that was an absolute workhorse. The 3 groups were a bit of overkill because we are a small place. So we went for a nice looking Quick Mill 2 group machine.

Now for my problem. The last two days (since I received the machine) I have been struggling to get a nice espresso shot. At first I kept blaming myself and fiddling with the grind and such. I am a competent coffee maker and have been doing it for nearly nine years now, so when I was still unable to get a nice shot i was very surprised. The problem I feel is the heat of the water during extraction. Coffee is coming out extremely bitter and also very hot. Its not a problem I have ever had with a machine before.

Now the obvious solution (I think) is to reduce the boiler temperature. However when I do this after around 10-20 mins the machine loses pressure and water stops coming out of the groups, the steam wands and the hot water dispenser. The temperature gauge idles at the temperature I set it to however nothing else works. I feel I must be missing something. I have never set the boiler temp myself as it has usually been done for me. This new machine is digital and seemed pretty straight forward which is why I chose to do this myself. The only boiler temperature the machine seems to work at is 120 degrees celsius. Even one degree lower makes it stop working. Are there other things I am supposed to adjust when adjusting the boiler temperature???

Im sorry if this is a stupid question and also if it is in the wrong area.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,449
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 5:28am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

dino823 Said:

Hi everyone. my name is Dino and I am new to the website. I stumbled across the site while I was looking for some information regarding my new Quick Mill machine.

This is the machine I have just bought for my restaurant >>> Click Here (www.quickmill.it)

For the past three years I had a 3 group WEGA machine that was an absolute workhorse. The 3 groups were a bit of overkill because we are a small place. So we went for a nice looking Quick Mill 2 group machine.

Now for my problem. The last two days (since I received the machine) I have been struggling to get a nice espresso shot. At first I kept blaming myself and fiddling with the grind and such. I am a competent coffee maker and have been doing it for nearly nine years now, so when I was still unable to get a nice shot i was very surprised. The problem I feel is the heat of the water during extraction. Coffee is coming out extremely bitter and also very hot. Its not a problem I have ever had with a machine before.

Now the obvious solution (I think) is to reduce the boiler temperature. However when I do this after around 10-20 mins the machine loses pressure and water stops coming out of the groups, the steam wands and the hot water dispenser. The temperature gauge idles at the temperature I set it to however nothing else works. I feel I must be missing something. I have never set the boiler temp myself as it has usually been done for me. This new machine is digital and seemed pretty straight forward which is why I chose to do this myself. The only boiler temperature the machine seems to work at is 120 degrees celsius. Even one degree lower makes it stop working. Are there other things I am supposed to adjust when adjusting the boiler temperature???

Thanks

Posted May 22, 2014 link

120C is 0.98 bar pressure. If 1C less stops it working that would be unusual, what does the pressure gauge show for steam pressure?

If indeed you are at 120C and your steam pressure gauge isn't showing 1.6 bar, but the 1 bar it should be, then the brew temperature should not be too hot. The only time it might get a little hotter, is if the machine sits unused for a long time in between shots. I would suggest you verify your pressure gauge matches up with what the electronics are telling you (and that there is no offset set for the displayed/actual temperatures) and if it does....contact QM themselves.

The other possibility is your other machine was running far too cool, the coffee you were ordering was roasted very dark and only now at correct brew temperatures are you experiencing just how bitter the coffee can be when it's very dark.
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Giampiero
Senior Member


Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 55
Location: Bangkok
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano
Grinder: Fiorenzato F5
Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 6:31am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

did you modified the PID parameters?

dino823 Said:

Hi everyone. my name is Dino and I am new to the website. I stumbled across the site while I was looking for some information regarding my new Quick Mill machine.

This is the machine I have just bought for my restaurant >>> Click Here (www.quickmill.it)

For the past three years I had a 3 group WEGA machine that was an absolute workhorse. The 3 groups were a bit of overkill because we are a small place. So we went for a nice looking Quick Mill 2 group machine.

Now for my problem. The last two days (since I received the machine) I have been struggling to get a nice espresso shot. At first I kept blaming myself and fiddling with the grind and such. I am a competent coffee maker and have been doing it for nearly nine years now, so when I was still unable to get a nice shot i was very surprised. The problem I feel is the heat of the water during extraction. Coffee is coming out extremely bitter and also very hot. Its not a problem I have ever had with a machine before.

Now the obvious solution (I think) is to reduce the boiler temperature. However when I do this after around 10-20 mins the machine loses pressure and water stops coming out of the groups, the steam wands and the hot water dispenser. The temperature gauge idles at the temperature I set it to however nothing else works. I feel I must be missing something. I have never set the boiler temp myself as it has usually been done for me. This new machine is digital and seemed pretty straight forward which is why I chose to do this myself. The only boiler temperature the machine seems to work at is 120 degrees celsius. Even one degree lower makes it stop working. Are there other things I am supposed to adjust when adjusting the boiler temperature???

Im sorry if this is a stupid question and also if it is in the wrong area.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Posted May 22, 2014 link

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dino823
Senior Member


Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Warragul
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 6:55am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

Giampiero Said:

did you modified the PID parameters?

Posted May 22, 2014 link

No I didn't. Should I have?
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dino823
Senior Member


Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Warragul
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 7:00am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

DavecUK Said:

120C is 0.98 bar pressure. If 1C less stops it working that would be unusual, what does the pressure gauge show for steam pressure?

If indeed you are at 120C and your steam pressure gauge isn't showing 1.6 bar, but the 1 bar it should be, then the brew temperature should not be too hot. The only time it might get a little hotter, is if the machine sits unused for a long time in between shots. I would suggest you verify your pressure gauge matches up with what the electronics are telling you (and that there is no offset set for the displayed/actual temperatures) and if it does....contact QM themselves.

The other possibility is your other machine was running far too cool, the coffee you were ordering was roasted very dark and only now at correct brew temperatures are you experiencing just how bitter the coffee can be when it's very dark.

Posted May 22, 2014 link

Thanks for writing this. The gauge is sitting at about 1.1 while at 120C. I have thought of the possibility that perhaps my last one was running too cool but in saying that my current shots feel scorching hot.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you mean regarding "no offset set for the displayed/actual temperatures"
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,449
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 7:35am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

The PIDs for coffee machines usually have an offset, because if used for the "brew" boiler in a dual boiler machine, the brew boiler is often hotter than the brew temperature. so the boiler might actually run at 104C for a brew temperature of 94C, because the water cools in the group. An offset allows this brew water temperature to be shown, instead of the actual temperature of the brew boiler. In this case the PID might show 94c, with an offset of 10C.

The above should not apply to you because you have a Heat exchanger machine and not a dual boiler. Also if your gauge is reading about 1.1 that's near enough correct for a PID setting of 120 or 121C. So clearly you do not have any value in the offset of the PID. For your machine an offset of 0  is correct.

It's confusing that your temperature is reduced lower than the 120C, steaming or hot water doesn't work....this would normally indicate that the PID could be improved and if the PID allows it, the temperature range over which the PID moderates the power output to the heading element reduced in size..

I still think your other machine may have been running cool and you use really darkly roasted coffee and hence it's not tasting bitter.....but you have not answered that part of the question.
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Giampiero
Senior Member


Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 55
Location: Bangkok
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano
Grinder: Fiorenzato F5
Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 5:46pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

there is something strange.
Dino wrote that once lowered pressure, after 10-20 minutes the pressure drop down and no water come out from groups, and hot water wand.
This is not because pressure is down, there is something else in the electric circuit.
Water come out from the group even without boiler pressure, ( just run pump and 3 way valve) and hot water, in that machine,should  work with the pump and solenoid valve
Did Dino tried to withdrawing steam form the manual steam valve once the machine does not work due to the "pressure issue"?
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dino823
Senior Member


Joined: 22 May 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Warragul
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu May 22, 2014, 6:47pm
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

DavecUK Said:

The PIDs for coffee machines usually have an offset, because if used for the "brew" boiler in a dual boiler machine, the brew boiler is often hotter than the brew temperature. so the boiler might actually run at 104C for a brew temperature of 94C, because the water cools in the group. An offset allows this brew water temperature to be shown, instead of the actual temperature of the brew boiler. In this case the PID might show 94c, with an offset of 10C.

The above should not apply to you because you have a Heat exchanger machine and not a dual boiler. Also if your gauge is reading about 1.1 that's near enough correct for a PID setting of 120 or 121C. So clearly you do not have any value in the offset of the PID. For your machine an offset of 0  is correct.

It's confusing that your temperature is reduced lower than the 120C, steaming or hot water doesn't work....this would normally indicate that the PID could be improved and if the PID allows it, the temperature range over which the PID moderates the power output to the heading element reduced in size..

I still think your other machine may have been running cool and you use really darkly roasted coffee and hence it's not tasting bitter.....but you have not answered that part of the question.

Posted May 22, 2014 link

Thank you for your help. This makes sense now. I am using a dark roast and I think you may be correct. As we speak I am trying a few other blends and single origins to good effect. My WEGA was quite ancient and this is a brand new machine. I am needing to make some adjustments. It is good to get some info regarding PID etc. as I want to know more about my machine and become a lot better at making coffee.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,853
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri May 23, 2014, 5:58am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

I could be reading this wrong but it seems to me to be a HX machine, regardless if it has a PID.

- Boiler with transversal exchanger Dia.50 mm 12 L

Your temp and pressure sound normal, I advise just doing a HX flush before pulling shots, it is simple to do and it will bring the brew temp into the proper zone for coffee, not the boiler pressure.

Good luck.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,449
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri May 23, 2014, 7:02am
Subject: Re: Quick Mill Commercial Machine - Boiler help
 

calblacksmith Said:

I could be reading this wrong but it seems to me to be a HX machine, regardless if it has a PID.

- Boiler with transversal exchanger Dia.50 mm 12 L

Your temp and pressure sound normal, I advise just doing a HX flush before pulling shots, it is simple to do and it will bring the brew temp into the proper zone for coffee, not the boiler pressure.

Good luck.

Posted May 23, 2014 link

With that machine boiler size and steam pressure and group, it shouldn't be necessary unless it's really been sitting idle for ages....they are not so much like the normal prosumer offerings. I suspect his other machine was too cool and he is only now experiencing the full bitterness of very dark roasting...i'm guessing peets style here.
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