Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 1:04pm Subject: Request for "espresso roast" second opinion
I feel like I have accidentally stepped into a Lewis Carroll novel ... the "explanations" that I am getting from a local commercial roaster just don't sound right to me. Could somebody with more experience tell me if this stuff is correct?
About a week ago, I just wanted to prepare and taste some "different" espresso blends. (I have used *$ because it was convenient all over the world as I travel.) I visited a near-by commercial roaster here; explained that I was inexperienced, and asked to purchase some small quantities of about three "different" recently roasted espresso blends in order to determine what I liked.
The owner (and his family) have been in the roasting business for perhaps 50 years. They're in about 900 sq ft in an industrial park with a few shelves, benches, 2 Ditting grinders, a Dietreich (sp?) roaster (does 30 lbs. batches) in the middle of the floor, bags of coffee beans and a bunch of labels. He supplies local restaurants and offices. The operation seems very casual.
He stressed that his coffees were "estate" coffees and all arabica. When I asked for small quantities of decaf espresso beans to try, he explained that while he had a few coffees that he sent to be Swiss water treated, there was so little caffeine if most of his coffees that I didn't need to use a decaf. Specifically, that robusta coffees are 94% caffeine free (CF) and arabicas are 98.5% CF because they are grown at elevation in rainy areas and the rain washes the caffeine out. (huh??). So his coffees were all more CF than gov't standard which was 97%.
He then sold me three half pound bags of his most popular espresso (called "European Blend") to try ... a CF, a regular and a 50/50. He said I would not be able to see a difference in grinding needs or taste. (The CF does seem to need to be ground a little finer to keep the shot time the same. It also tastes somehow different, but I can't put my finger on what the difference is yet.)
Today I called and asked if he would let me have something different, preferably with a strong chocolate and /or nutty flavor and that I just wanted the Decaf version. "No problem! I have some --unintelligible-- for you".
When I arrived 15 minutes later, he seemed surprised to see me and said he was roasting it as we spoke. He showed me how light the coffee beans looked through a little glass window in the roaster and said the beans would darken up in about 5 minutes (it seemed longer). The temp on the roaster was about 230 when I started watching. In response to my questions, he explained that this would be an Espresso Roast that would peak at 458F. A Full City roast was about 440 and an American roast was about 428-430F.
As the beans began to darken, he announced that it was now looking like a Verona and that it was going faster than he expected because the beans were very dry ... this was the new crop of Ethiopian beans from this year and it would be very good. He said he would stop it short of 458 (he shut off and dumped the beans onto a screen at about 440-442) because he could hear them "second cracking" and he could see a light sheen of oil starting to appear on the surface. Air blowing through the beans on the screen cooled them and he ground some to try in his NS Oscar super automatic (4 minute warm up and 1 blank shot).
The taste was definitely more "buttery" if that makes sense, but it was hard to detect any specific flavors. In passing he went through the "you don't need decaf, this is more decaf than you could buy" thing again. So I went away with my Christmas experiment, ... half a pound of something VERY VERY dark with a colorful label that reads Ethiopian Yrgacheffe and his instructions to keep the temperaure on my machine below 190F ringing in my ears.
I am not quite certain what to make of all this and decided to ask for help.
Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 1:27pm Subject: Re: Request for "espresso roast" second opinion
KittJ Said:
He stressed that his coffees were "estate" coffees and all arabica. When I asked for small quantities of decaf espresso beans to try, he explained that while he had a few coffees that he sent to be Swiss water treated, there was so little caffeine if most of his coffees that I didn't need to use a decaf. Specifically, that robusta coffees are 94% caffeine free (CF) and arabicas are 98.5% CF because they are grown at elevation in rainy areas and the rain washes the caffeine out. (huh??). So his coffees were all more CF than gov't standard which was 97%.
I don't like the way the guy is saying this. By his standard, he could say that Red Bull is 99.97% caffeine free, because each 8.2 oz can contains only 80 mg of caffeine. By no stretch of the imagination is Red Bull a CF product.
If a coffee bean is 98% caffeine free, then the other two percent is caffeine.
He is creating the misimpression that this is not a statistically significant amount of caffeine. Ask any diabetic, Atkins dieter, anxious person, etc., if that amount of caffeine is the same as no caffeine at all.
my $0.02.
Jeremy
"I've appeared before every court in the state. Often as a lawyer." - Lionel Hutz, Esq.
Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 2:33pm Subject: Re: Request for "espresso roast" second opinion
I know nothing about the caffeine issue, but I love Yirg as a drip. I was not so impressed with it as espresso. Seemed a bit too unbalanced for me. NOt bad, just needed something to soften it a bit.
Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 3:58pm Subject: Re: Request for "espresso roast" second opinion
What is "it" your are not sure of? The guy has taken you into his roasting world where he shared some of his roasting skill with you and he seemed to answer all your questions.
Why are you so uncertain about this guy.? HE has gone above and beyond normal roaster behavior.
If some guy was trying to tell me that regular coffee has less caffiene than the decaf coffee I would NOT trust another word out of his mouth.
First: When I drink regular coffee, I want it to have caffiene and I want a predictable level of caffiene based on my experience (so I wake up but don't get too wired).
Second: When I drink decaf I want it to have little or no caffiene so I can drink it in the evening and not have it keep me up all night. Again, I want this to be predictable.
Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 6:13pm Subject: Re: Request for "espresso roast" second opinion
Hi mainbohemian,
I realize that the man is being quite generous with his attention. Since most of his business is phone orders delivered by his son, he doesn't get many visitors (according to him) because he is a wholesale operation. I appreciate that he takes me around the work area as he waits for the alarm to ring (which calls him to supervise the last few minutes of the roast underway). I also realize that he is rather pleased to have a listener.
But the "it" that is making me a little uncertain about his tutelage is the disconnect between some of what seems accepted on the board (e.g. Shomer thinks 203F is right temp for his coffee with each degree C making a detectable difference in the taste while the roaster thinks 185-190F is right for esspreso; decafeinating arabica coffees is a waste of time, the rain removes the cafeine; you can store your dry roasted beans at room temperature in the bag for 6 months before they will begin to lose their flavor, etc.) I suspect that he knows how to roast, ... he has roasted more coffee than you and I will ever see in our lives. But I worry that he has the explanation a little garbled.
If he doesn't want to mess with Decaf because it raises his bean cost, has a low volume (creating inventory management problems) and is more unpredictable to roast, that's fine with me. Just tell me: "I don't sell a variety of decaf espressos." But instead, he keeps selling me things I don't want ( and after he has given me so much attention, I am not going to refuse to pay for the bag he hands me which is not what I asked for.) It's as if he has the answer and he doesn't care what the question is.
If you have found that most roasters are like this, then I'll ignore the decaf explanation (which I surmise hopelessly confuses European and US standards methodologies) and keep trying to learn what he is willing to share. (I hope what he is telling me about the roast temperatures make sense.) But if this is a situation I should steer clear of, then I would appreciate a heads-up.
I will take your suggestion to lighten up and enjoy the coffee. I think I'll go pull a shot of decaf.
Rawman Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2003 Posts: 952 Location: SF Bay Area, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Office Control ,... Grinder: Mazzer Mini Vac Pot: Silex Vintage Vac Pot Drip: Bodum chambord FP, Melitta... Roaster: Buzzroaster, HG/DB
Posted Fri Dec 24, 2004, 11:07pm Subject: Re: Request for "espresso roast" second opinion
My suggestion is that you never go back there. Clearly the person is either messing with you because you said you had no experience, or he really doesn't know any better. Either way grounds to never give him your money again.
here is a link to the swiss water process webpage. Here is their page on caffeine content. Finally Here is their page on Decaffeination Standards (US, European, and Canadian).
On his page, he also says that his decaffeinated coffees are SWISS WATER PROCESSED, not decaffeinated in animal fat like most commercial coffees . I have never heard of a process approved by the FDA that uses animal fat. It could exist but I have never heard of it. I even checked on some websites about Kosher foods. No mention is made of any caffeination process involving animal fats. (The rules of Kosher foods would require any meat substances to be labeled.)
As for mainbohemian's comment that the guy has gone
above and beyond normal roaster behavior
I disagree. At Barefoot Coffee Roasters the roaster will happily go into great detail discussing roasting coffees with you if you walk over and ask questions. To me it's a sign that they enjoy what they are doing.
Rawman the Expobarbarian.. AKA the Original Jon R.
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