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Great espresso at altitude?

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Discussions > Espresso > General > Great espresso...

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Slithy
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Joined: 27 Dec 2004
Posts: 38
Location: Denver
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Silvia w/ Arduino PID
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Posted Mon Jan 3, 2005, 2:16pm Subject: Great espresso at altitude?

Hi all - I have recently begun the quest for making great espresso at home. I live in Denver, and I just ran across an article by David Schomer that stopped me in my tracks: http://www.lucidcafe.com/cafeforum/schomertable15.html . Schomer says that because of the altitude, water boils at a lower temperature, and therefore, it is impossible to brew espresso at the correct temperature up here. Does anyone have different experience? Any geeks who live at higher altitude and have success at making espresso? I'm really bummed. I don't want to find out that my moka pot coffee that I've been living on for all these years is the best I can do.

runt
Senior Member

Joined: 5 May 2003
Posts: 95
Location: Beautiful Colorado
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Señor Brewtus
Grinder: Mazzer Mini E, zassenhaus
Vac Pot: bodum santos
Drip: press pot, no drip!
Roaster: Gene

Posted Mon Jan 3, 2005, 3:37pm Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

The more you read, the more you'll find that 'correct temperature' is more a matter of opinion than fact carved in stone. I'm at about 5500 feet and very happy with the performance of my new Brewtus. As a caveat, I am only drinking milk based drinks at this point. I like my press pot black, but haven't developed the taste for straight espresso yet. The difference between a bad shot, a good shot, and a great shot is still striking - even with a little milk. There are tons of things I'm still learning. The difference between the way different beans behave is dramatic. Yes, I'm sure there are some beans that want to be extracted at water temperatures higher than we can achieve - but that isn't true for all blends and roasts. The Italian Espresso National Institute recommends an exit temperature of 88°C +/- 2° C. click here I haven't tried anything that cool yet. But there are blends that taste better off my max brew temp of 93°C (94°C dances with boiling here.) Far be if from me to say one expert is right or wrong, I'll just say that it isn't uncommon for experts to disagree. All the variable continue to surprise me. I don't believe it's impossible to get a good espresso at altitude for a minute. But I do believe there are blends we might never be able to get the best out of. It just means a little more experimentation and I don't have a problem with that. I don't regret taking the plunge for a minute. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'll never get a god shot here. But right now, when they're good, I make better cappas than I've gotten at any shop here, or at sea level in southern California (except one.) That's plenty good enough for me. -Merlynn

nmayweather
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Joined: 25 Jun 2004
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Location: nyc
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Espresso: expobar office, isomac venus
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Roaster: toastmaster popper

Posted Mon Jan 3, 2005, 6:56pm Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

my gf is from denver we went home for xmas. i spent a week trying to find a not-disgusting espresso or espresso based drink. i gave up after $40, and enjoyed drip coffee. if either of you can recommend somewhere up there that doesn't completely suck, please let me know. we got back a few times a year, and its really hard not having espresso for a week.

ppopp
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Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 300
Location: Boulder, CO
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Solis SL-70
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Posted Tue Jan 4, 2005, 9:16am Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

In Denver, you can try Kaladi Brothers on Evans, just west of DU. That's where I buy my beans. I've also heard that Pablo's on 6th Ave. near Washington, I believe, is good. Both of these places roast their own beans. Denver isn't the best place to go searching for outstanding coffee shops, but I don't believe it has anything to do with the high altitude. I would put any drink I can make with my SL-70/Maestro combo up against anything you can order in most shops here in Denver. Anyone who drinks tea will tell you that it takes longer to steep here, because the water boils at a lower temperature. But brewing espresso is a different animal. The brewing system is "closed" to the outside atmosphere between the water intake in the reservoir (or plumbed supply) and the outlet of the portafilter basket. If you tamp with enough pressure to pull a double in, say, 25 seconds, why does the outside atmospheric pressure make any difference? The pressure inside your system will be the same regardless of the atmospheric pressure (I think). This now has me wondering what kind of mess you could make on the International Space Station with a bottomless portafilter under zero gravity. That's another post, I guess.

Peter ------------------------------------------------------ Know beans, know coffee. No beans, no coffee.

Posted Tue Jan 4, 2005, 9:24am Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

i've often wondered if the water will boil in a closed container at a different temp -- ie, since the boiler in an espresso machine is pressurized, wouldn't it 'boil' at some temp other than that for whatever elevation you are on? the difference in pressure, i've read, has a big difference on the exiting of espresso from the grouphead. there was some schomer article on how the emulsification went all crazy.

Posted Tue Jan 4, 2005, 9:45am Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

The closed system controls pressure, which controls temperature - just like a pressure cooker. But the problem comes when you hit atmospheric pressure. Anything over ~202°F will flash boil as it exits. And you don't want your espresso flash boiling so you need to lower the brew temp appropriately. This now has me wondering what kind of mess you could make on the International Space Station with a bottomless portafilter under zero gravity. That's another post, I guess. I don't even want to think about the above - it just makes my head hurt! -Merlynn

Posted Tue Jan 4, 2005, 12:16pm Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

Thanks for all the replies. I did a little searching on the alt.coffee archives, and it has been discussed there a fair amount. Most people seem to feel that, at least around 5000+ ft, it isn't a problem. Obviously, this is a topic that involves a lot more science than I can fathom, but I do find it interesting. I guess the temperature and pressure up to the exit of the portafilter can be seen as independent of outside pressure? It is what happens when the espresso exits the portafilter that can be a problem. As people have said, if the liquid is at the boiling point, it could flash boil on exiting. This would destroy the crema. Maybe the abrupt change in pressure (from inside to outside) also causes crema destruction, more so than when pulling a shot where the atmospheric pressure is higher. Assuming that adjusting the brew temp will have some impact on the problem, is this something that can be done on most machines? At the moment, I'm dreaming of a Silvia. Espresso at zero g - Moonraker....

49express
Senior Member

Joined: 7 Nov 2003
Posts: 258
Location: Denver
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Francis Francis X5
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Posted Tue Jan 4, 2005, 3:57pm Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

One additional post on this topic. I highly recommend Pablo's at 6th and Washington. Currently I'm pulling wonderful shots with their espresso blend (4 beans). I purchased 1/2 lb. each also of their Kenya, and Moka Harar and I'm playing around mixing some of these in with the espresso blend. Great crema, very nice depth of flavor - almost winey. Go visit - the folks behind the counter are really wonderful people and they roast every Tuesday.

x
Senior Member

Joined: 29 Sep 2002
Posts: 322
Location: x
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Jan 4, 2005, 7:08pm Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

Hello, Does anyone have different experience? Any geeks who live at higher altitude and have success at making espresso? I'm really bummed. I don't want to find out that my moka pot coffee that I've been living on for all these years is the best I can do. I live west of Denver at 8000 feet. I read the schomer material as well. It bummed me out too. That was several years ago and I still think about it now and then, but screw it, I am not moving anytime soon. Even if I lived at sealevel I doubt I could make as good espresso as schomer but that doesn't mean I can't make good espresso just because of the altitude. I like Kaladi Bros. Too. They use a Sevitz roaster which is not to common in these parts. A little unusual to me also, they regularly freeze there coffee. Still the best shop IMO in the Denver area, but I Haven't tried Pablos. On a side note I heard Kaladi's is installing a or maybe the only versalab machine??? That's going to be worth the price of a double to checkout. As was stated, espresso shops not the greatest in Colorado. What the heck, just means it is easier to be proud of what you can do at home. Always looking for coffee people to get together with, Email me if you would lke to come up and taste some hi-altitude espresso for better or worse. Loring

Posted Sat Jan 8, 2005, 8:13am Subject: Re: Great espresso at altitude?

Thanks for the responses. I've checked out Pablo's and Kaladi Bros., and like them both. I'm still learning what a good espresso shot is, so I can't really say whether the quality was "great" or just "good". Pablo's was a nice shot, but a little light on crema maybe. I really like the atmosphere there, and the big windows that face out onto 6th Ave. At Kaladi's I ordered a Macchiato, and it was a little heavy on the foam, which overpowered the espresso. The atmoshpere there is a little more "college-ey", being right next to DU.

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