MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 5,054 Location: Vancouver Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Frankenstein'ed LM Linea Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano Vac Pot: 1922 Silex Drip: Krups Moka Brew Roaster: Hottop
Posted Mon May 30, 2005, 9:16pm Subject: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
I'm kinda in a upity mood today, because I read a fairly harsh criticism of me on a couple of blogs, regarding my visits to some cafes in Portland.
I was critical of some of the shots I got in my four day trip - gave critical comments to the Baristas when they solicited my opinions and comments about the shot pulls. I get home last night, and friend Nick points me to one blog with some harsh commentary about my visit, and friend James points me to another blog with slightly less harsh commentary.
Both blogs called me to task for, I guess, "daring" to criticise the shots I got at a Portland Cafe. I was labeled a "self proclaimed coffee afficionado" at one site, and "a guy who's never worked as a barista" at another site. (EDIT: both sites have removed said commentary. This post wasn't meant to shame them or single these fellows out - this is why I didn't name the blogs - it was more a social commentary about whether or not asked for advice should be given)
Nick, in IM chat told me that he's heard this before about me. That I'm critical (too critical?) of shots poured. That I intimidate baristas. He suggested I should be more like a Tim Wendelboe and just say "great!" when asked how the shot is, no matter what; instead of being more like a Paul Bassett, and picking apart the shots.
My attitude is (was?) that, if I'm asked for my opinion, I'm going to give it. Good, bad, or ugly. If a shot finishes with a sour lemon feel, I'll say it. If it blows my mind and makes me not want to drink anything else for fear of dilutting the aftertaste, I'll say that as well.
However, I'm getting pretty fed up with the two sides of the coin I face. If I rave about a shot, either in person or online, then the shot-pullin' barista is proud and says stuff like "that expert at CoffeeGeek loved it..." or "that world barista champion judge gave me huge props". If I diss a shot, no matter how mildly, then I'm called a wannabe, "self proclaimed", or otherwise belittled.
Can't win. Maybe I will go the Tim way - just say everything's great, or not say anything at all. Why not just lie and be a fanboy, I suppose.
brentling Senior Member Joined: 25 Sep 2002 Posts: 895 Location: By the beach in Auckland, NZ - turn right you can't miss me Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: wega, fiorenzato Grinder: Growing collection of... Drip: yes people call me that... Roaster: collection building...
Posted Mon May 30, 2005, 9:28pm Subject: Re: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
Mark,
I have always appreciated your honesty.
We have discussed offline the appropriateness of comments.
My online comment - bring it on! If you think (think is the key word) that it is bad, say so.
I would put just one proviso. If you don't like it tell the staff there and then. If they fix it, then you should be pleased with the results - that at leas they tried to please you. If they don't give a stuff, well they deserve what they get.
I would happily have that standard applied to myself - because if you came in, had a coffee, said it wasn't right, I would be trying to get it right.
I have been into places that couldn't give a stuff, and will tell everyone to avoid them, but point them in the direction of the worse cafe that is trying to get it right...
If you haven't discussed your concerns with the cafe / whatever at the time, it's a bit unfair to blast them from a distance (one foot, one mile, one country doesn't matter) after the fact if they aren't aware they got it wrong.
Thats my thoughts...
Brent (always scared when a cg tries his coffee - even the regulars)
MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 5,054 Location: Vancouver Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Frankenstein'ed LM Linea Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano Vac Pot: 1922 Silex Drip: Krups Moka Brew Roaster: Hottop
Posted Mon May 30, 2005, 9:34pm Subject: Re: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
brentling Said:
If you haven't discussed your concerns with the cafe / whatever at the time, it's a bit unfair to blast them from a distance (one foot, one mile, one country doesn't matter) after the fact if they aren't aware they got it wrong.
That's the thing that is bothering me. They were all "right there, right now" situations...
Served shot. Asked for comment. Comments given.
Now at least one or more Baristi in Portland are going around bad mouthing me because I'm supposedly some wannabe who thinks that a certain blend is crap when in fact (according to them) it's the best in the world. Ever. All the time. All pulls.
Grr. ;)
Mark PS. I don't think the blend is crap, just for the record. I think it's a blend. And subject to all the variables a blend is subject to: bean quality, roast levels, bag to bag variances, age, grind quality, fineness of grind, dose, tamp, pack, brew temperature, receptacles, etc etc etc. During my trip, it was obvious that the blend served was still too young off the roast. That's why, on Sunday, I finally got an awesome shot with it. The Friday and Saturday pulls were lacking.
Mark, if you said it then, they didn't try and fix it, and you said it again, it doesn't matter if you are a pretentious wannabe, WBC certified judge, renowned geek. They got it wrong.
the danger, and I am acutely aware of it, is that (trying not to be to commercial) in my case, we have a blend that did extremely well in a national competition. That scares some people, like cg's scare me. To some I am a super roaster, to other I am still the dork that I always was. Just a bunch of people who know stuff said my coffee rocks. Cool.
Roll forward a few months, we open our cafe (which is hibernating for winter yay!) and a local comes in, who by their own admission enjoys good coffee. Tried ours, and responded "good coffee, not to my liking" that was the last time they drank our coffee.
Am I annoyed? no, not even bothered. Thats the great thing about coffee, it's not generic.
There is a roaster here in Auckland, and there is nothing wrong with their coffee, I just don't happen to like it, so avoid it. Does that make it bad? no, am I bad, again no.
If I discuss it with the roaster - I am sure I will at some stage, I doubt he will change a thing - and I don't expect him to. But thats the blend - if it had been made badly, thats a whole different game.
And badly versus goodly is defined by reputation. If you went into a cafe with a hyped reputation, and got served something OK (nothing normally wrong with that) then it was a bad shot, as it didn't meet your expectations.
I don't know how I could avoid that, but I start by only ever claiming that I think my coffee is great, wanna try it?
That is exactly what I am now. IN fact, in Beijing, I am very famous with the picture of claiming person, old one. I always tell the trueth if they ask, or even not ask. In my opinion, it is much good for them to hear it, because I saw many coffee shops, which did not have good coffee and then closed for very poor business. If they do not make the coffee good, they loose their business and loose money. I thought, if I always say good, they may believe it and continue it. Then, they loose. In that case, they may hate you. While in my case, they had no reason to hate me, but only no face to see me again.
In this way, I feel good just because I said what I should say. If they do not follow my advise, that is their choice. Not my fault.
Peter
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I have got a new website, just started to establish. If you have any question or suggestion, let me know and it is mostly appreciated.
Posted Mon May 30, 2005, 10:27pm Subject: Re: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
I hear ya, Mark. I'm a local chapter coordinator for an international organization of independent musicians and singer-songwriters, which was founded by a guy who so loved indie musicians that he decided to travel cross-country just to hang out with them and learn what makes them tick. The tour grew into the worldwide online forum and even spawned its own annual program of music awards--which in terms of entrants and honors awarded is bigger than the Grammys. The thing is, this guy, though he is a good keyboardist and a passionate devotee of music, has never had a song of his covered by another artist and does not earn his living making, recording, or writing music. Does this make him incompetent to spearhead an army of judges and pass judgment on the quality of others' music? According to scads of folks who did not get nominated, apparently so. And those who won awards speak of his competence and discernment at a level tantamount to the most renowned music critics in rock or popdom. (And for the record, no, I've never been nominated and yes, I'm one of the judges).
You will always piss off and engender bitter rants from those who come out on the short end of your criticism; and you run the risk of being cited as the ultimate authority by those you praise who seek to turn that to commercial advantage. That's the downside of turning your passion into something that carries the imprimatur of authority: those who meet with your disapproval will put you under the microscope of rationalization, while those who make the grade will cite your approval as the ultimate validation. Illegitimi non carborundum. You have taken the time and trouble to familiarize yourself with and immerse yourself in all aspects of the world of coffee and have learned to discern the best from the rest. So what if you are not a practitioner of the art? I love wine, but have never made any, nor have I ever been an importer or merchant thereof. Does that disqualify me from attending tastings or chiding waitstaff for poorly stored or served wines? Does my love for the stuff and years of tasting, collecting, and studying it justify a vintner or restaurant of which I approve citing my opinion as gospel?
People need to step back and put things in perspective. Don't let it get to you.
Sandy www.sandyandina.com ------------------- Life's too short to drink lousy coffee, play crummy guitars and write with ballpoint pens.
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon May 30, 2005, 10:32pm Subject: Re: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
Being an audience is the toughest job.
I don't think either "it's great" or "it's crap" does well among friends. I'm a fairly serious amateur cook as well as a coffee enthusiast and I don't much like either reaction when people come over to eat or taste. I much prefer an analytical attitutude: "I think this works; but that doesn't." Even better is when someone asks what I was trying to do, and then lists all the ways it falls short (I never get exactly what I had in mind when I cook or do coffee; although sometimes I get a pleasant surprise).
Since you obviously are analytical in your espresso tasting; it may have been the psychology of the setting more than the remarks themselves that caused the problem. "Coffee celebrity Mark Prince is coming to judge me." Not good. When I'm on the producing end, I much prefer the person who acts like a fellow cook or coffee person with a "lets work on this together," attitude, rather than someone who takes the role of judge. For instance, I like to hear "how did you do this, have you considered that?" type questions.
I'm fairly thick skinned now about being criticized; but I worked hard at it, realizing that without honest feedback my skills would never improve. But when I began, it was really tough; getting slammed felt like dying.
nickcho Senior Member Joined: 7 Nov 2002 Posts: 430 Location: Washington, DC Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: Synesso Cyncra; 'Zocco Linea Drip: FETCO Extractor
Posted Mon May 30, 2005, 11:06pm Subject: Re: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
To publicly continue my conversation with Mark... since he took it public ;-)...
There are two main components of this issue for me: 1) Giving critical feedback to a barista in their shop, and 2) Mark Prince giving critical feedback.
As far as #1 is concerned, I can only point to my upcoming (someday) article titled "The Barista's Code of Conduct." Among professional baristas, I don't believe that you should really give criticism, constructive or otherwise, until the time and energy is invested to establish a relationship with that person... so that the feedback is truly received as 'constructive,' not just 'criticism.'
As for your 'average' consumer, you can say whatever you want (though common-courtesy is expected, of course). The barista will either have a bad day because of your criticism, or they'll just write you off as an asshole. :-P
As far as #2... well, whether you like it or not, Mark... you are somewhat of a coffee-industry-celebrity, and (questionably) a bit of an authority on this stuff. I ONLY write "questionably" because though I and many others indeed know you to be very knowledgable, thoughtful, and experienced, a lot of others aren't privy to your qualifications. These folks don't know whether you know your stuff, or if you're just a little man behind the curtain, who's marking up HTML all day.
So in a way, I guess it's that though you're not a 'professional barista' in the strictest definition, you sorta fall under the 'unwritten rules' of one. *shrug*
In addition, for you to ask, "Should I just shut up now?" is kinda-sorta like Tom Cruise saying, "Do I have no right to privacy?" Of course, to you, and to Tom Cruise, the fair and just answer is pretty obvious. No, you shouldn't have to shut up, and Tom Cruise should be able to bonk Katie Holmes all day and all night without worrying about some dude with a camera sneaking in his bungalow and taking pictures of the event for all the world to see.
However, there's what's fair, and there's what's "reasonable to expect." With Tom Cruise making money and being as famous as he is, perhaps it's the price that society's forcing him to pay for his success. And perhaps in your case, Mark, your choice to work as hard as you have to make CoffeeGeek.com the amazing resource and destination that it is, has the unintended consequence of you now being unable to give anything but positive feedback to baristas... lest you be called a jerk behind your back.
jim_schulman Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 3,772 Location: Chicago Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Tue May 31, 2005, 12:24am Subject: Re: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
nickcho Said:
As far as #1 is concerned, I can only point to my upcoming (someday) article titled "The Barista's Code of Conduct." Among professional baristas, I don't believe that you should really give criticism, constructive or otherwise, until the time and energy is invested to establish a relationship with that person... so that the feedback is truly received as 'constructive,' not just 'criticism.'
Hmm, not sure about that. In healthy professions, there's not much tip-toeing when it come to criticism. Amateurs can form mutual admiration societies, especially if they want to stay amateurish; but becoming skilled at anything requires a thick enough skin to survive being told your latest creation sucks.
If a professional relation starts out with insincere, formulaic praise; when is it going to change? Ideally, people would emphatically ask for straight opinions; but that doesn't happen until they see others they admire doing that. In your system, there's a danger that the only thing newbies will see is people praising others to their face, and slamming them behind their backs. That's par for polite society, of course; but a profession or craft needs higher standards.
Really brutal and vicious criticism is not necessary (although I've participated in a few settings where this was the custom, and people were proud of it); but honest criticism is. Otherwise standards start slipping imperceptibly, until you are producing garbage, don't know it yourself, and everyone else is too polite to tell you to your face.
alanfrew Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 467 Location: Melbourne Expertise: Professional
Posted Tue May 31, 2005, 1:36am Subject: Re: Should I just shut up now? Evaluating espresso in shops.
Cripes Mark, if they were upset by YOUR criticism, they wouldn't want Paul Bassett (or any other Aussie coffeegeeks) to front up. We tend to be famous for calling a spade a bloody shovel, but I've always thought your critiques of both coffees and machines tend to give a bit more "benefit of the doubt" than I would. Something like "you call this overextracted, overroasted, stale, thin, tasteless bucket of brown water espresso?!" might be worth an upset blog, but not the analytical sort of stuff I know you told them.
Fact is you HAVE put in the "hard yards" and they, obviously, have not. Tell 'em to go forth and multiply, or words to that effect.
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