pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,121 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Mon Jun 20, 2005, 3:22am Subject: To be more clear about my understanding......
It seems that I did not present my understanding clearly, and there are some confusions about.
As I said, the coffee industry is still in the experienced stage, and not well understood and systematically intergrated into a well organized system. If one is to make good shot, the better way is to learn and to do based on the experience of the others.
Even though, we try to understand as much as possible, theoretically. But if we would try to understand it fully in a clearly described system, it is not possible yet. In this case, one has to gain and to find out the right solusions in terms of experience and also guess. For such an industry, the guess or feeling can be more important than normal. In this way, we may find some of our understanding of theory can be correct, but not all of them.
If only possible, we would like to understand it fully and theoretically. It is quite possible that we can only do it many years ago, I suppose.
In fact, I suppose that we can organize some seminars, and then a related academic organization for the theoretical study of coffee. I am quite sure that we have a lot of things to do before we can fully understand it, or even just to a deep level of it. Such a study of coffee is far more than the components and chemical studies. Where to start it, is still a question.
Is that clear to understand?
Peter
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I have got a new website, just started to establish. If you have any question or suggestion, let me know and it is mostly appreciated.
Posted Tue Jun 21, 2005, 8:16pm Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
Well I disagree.
We know enough about espresso and coffee that an easily understood model of extraction can be given to baristas which would aid them in improving their shots. It isn't a total replacement for training and experience but those aren't a replacement for thinking either. The model does not have to be complete - an engineering level of understanding (ie working approximation) is enough.
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,121 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 3:24am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
kaanage Said:
We know enough about espresso and coffee that an easily understood model of extraction can be given to baristas which would aid them in improving their shots. It isn't a total replacement for training and experience but those aren't a replacement for thinking either. The model does not have to be complete - an engineering level of understanding (ie working approximation) is enough.
As my personal understanding, there is no such model which can be good enough to help baristas effectively because we do not see a very helpful method to make many baristas to brew perfect espresso. Probably I do not know much about other areas, but as I can feel, there are still a lot of problems for most coffee shops.
If anyone knows similar things, I do like to know about it.
Peter
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I have got a new website, just started to establish. If you have any question or suggestion, let me know and it is mostly appreciated.
BenB Senior Member Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 466 Location: Perth, Australia Expertise: Professional
Espresso: 2 x 2grp LM Grinder: 2 Swifts, Mazzer Robur
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 6:59am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
I'm not sure I quite understand Peter - Do you want to know if there is a method or model for training baristas to a stage where they can pull good shots? Or are you asking if there is a over-arching understanding of the espresso process?
If it is the first then I would say that there is although on the job training is essential. If it is the second then again I would probably say that there is. However, there are always new things to learn and keeping an open mind about new practices and research will allow you to continutally move forward.
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,121 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 7:57am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
BenB Said:
I'm not sure I quite understand Peter - Do you want to know if there is a method or model for training baristas to a stage where they can pull good shots? Or are you asking if there is a over-arching understanding of the espresso process?
If it is the first then I would say that there is although on the job training is essential. If it is the second then again I would probably say that there is. However, there are always new things to learn and keeping an open mind about new practices and research will allow you to continutally move forward.
As far as I know, only the *$s have a training system, in which they can make their standard espresso. As we know, it is not so good. For others, I did not heard that someone can do it really effectively.
For a good training, I mean that one can train the staffs in a definite time, so that they can make good espresso almost without one out of the work.
Or, let's go back to the original question. Since people are still discussing about the understanding, this certainly means that we have not yet totally agreed with the final result about the model and the fully understanding. We are trying to understand it and looking for the real facts. That is true, I think, because we are not developing yet, just to understand what we do for now.
Don't you think so?
Peter
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I have got a new website, just started to establish. If you have any question or suggestion, let me know and it is mostly appreciated.
wogaut Senior Member Joined: 21 Sep 2004 Posts: 488 Location: Milwaukee Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: LM GS/3 Paddle; La Spaz S1... Grinder: Elektra Nino; La San Marco... Roaster: Hottop+PID
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 8:35am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
As far as standardized training goals, I believe that many bigger coffee places, especially with several locations, have a training system in place. Intelligentsia Coffee in Chicago popps into my mind. I've observed their baristi at several occassions, and they are very consistent in their training and their results! I also saw on their webpage they have people assigned to do mainly this (right, Ellie?).
And about a theoretical foundation from which you can derive a working model, I like to recommend Andrea Illy's book (Espresso Coffee: The Science of Quality, on Amazon).
The only factors, if all these things are properly in place, are individual taste and the "art" component about it. But these I find are mostly tweaks and have to be applied after the above works.
BenB Senior Member Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 466 Location: Perth, Australia Expertise: Professional
Espresso: 2 x 2grp LM Grinder: 2 Swifts, Mazzer Robur
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 8:49am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
Hi Peter,
pstam Said:
As far as I know, only the *$s have a training system, in which they can make their standard espresso. As we know, it is not so good. For others, I did not heard that someone can do it really effectively.
Here in Australia, there are a variety of chain coffee stores which have specific training regimes in place. Due to their high turn-over of staff, these companies have been forced to develop effective training techniques. As you rightly point out, these techniques don't necessarily produce the highest of quality baristas. However, Michels Pattiserie (another chain in Australia) has a reputation for serving fairly good coffee throughout most of its stores. It is reputed that some coffee industry veterans were involved in setting up their training schemes.
pstam Said:
For a good training, I mean that one can train the staffs in a definite time, so that they can make good espresso almost without one out of the work.
Does this mean that you don't allow your staff to operate the espresso machine when you are out of the store? I know that my manager, Corey, makes sure that we are consistently making high quality drinks for the rest of the staff and themselves (and have undergone extensive training) before they are allowed to make drinks for the customers. We have a range of steps for training up new staff members...which I guess you could call a method.
In terms of a general understanding of espresso and all of its subtleties, I agree that we do not understand all of its nuances. However, I believe that there is information out there, backed up by research, which does describe most of the processes involved in espresso preparation. Check out this book for heaps of scientific information about espresso brewing.
Another big factor about this 'understanding' is a generalised education system. Baristas around the world are learning habits and processes from a huge variety of different sources. These sources have wildly different ways of preparing espresso. A standardisation of espresso preparation techniques and practices would greatly aid in spreading this understanding - which is why it is so important for cafe owners and baristas to educate their customers about the correct preparation of espresso - obviously backed up by results in the cup.
nickcho Senior Member Joined: 7 Nov 2002 Posts: 430 Location: Washington, DC Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: Synesso Cyncra; 'Zocco Linea Drip: FETCO Extractor
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 8:55am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
The training and standardization in espresso of systems in understanding. When training baristas, employing standards and strict adherence to espresso practicing and training can be a standard.
On a side note, Peter, don't you think that you're making overly broad-brushed claims regarding the state of coffee and espresso knowledge worldwide, considering you have said in the past that you have never been outside of China?
pstam Senior Member Joined: 27 Jan 2004 Posts: 2,121 Location: Beijing Expertise: Professional
Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000 Grinder: MAZZER Vac Pot: YES Drip: YES Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 9:00am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
Hi Wolfgang,
It is only few questions. It does not mean that I am sure about it.
wogaut Said:
As far as standardized training goals, I believe that many bigger coffee places, especially with several locations, have a training system in place. Intelligentsia Coffee in Chicago popps into my mind. I've observed their baristi at several occassions, and they are very consistent in their training and their results! I also saw on their webpage they have people assigned to do mainly this (right, Ellie?).
For Intelligentsia Coffee, I do not really know. Is it a coffee roaster or a chain of coffee shops? Since most people talk about the coffee shops in Seattle, and I had not heard about it much. But surely I heard something about it, and from which I guess that they are a coffee roaster. But surely I am not quite sure about it.
wogaut Said:
And about a theoretical foundation from which you can derive a working model, I like to recommend Andrea Illy's book (Espresso Coffee: The Science of Quality, on Amazon).
About this book, there is a funny thing. In China, there is a book officially published, which is quite similar to this one. Even I did not read it carefully, I guess so.
Since I did not read that book, I could not really talk about it. But, as I said before about Illy, I am exactly sure that I can make better espresso with their blended beans, even if I do not really like it, than their clients. At least, they could not, if I say they would not that may means that I am not polite, teach or educate their clients very well. How to understand it? All the way are not quite properly, I suppose.
And, the most important is that they do not even care about it. Perche?
Back to that book, as he said, at least what I heard from others who read that book, there are more than 800 known components in a single bean and 700 unknown components in chemical analysis. How do they understand it without knowing those 700 components? I may be wrong because I did not read that book by myself.
wogaut Said:
The only factors, if all these things are properly in place, are individual taste and the "art" component about it. But these I find are mostly tweaks and have to be applied after the above works.
If only they can learn and make good espresso, that is really good enough. I do not really care others. They can do whatever they want, like my students, but they only have to make good or even perfect espresso.
I do not know if this can answer your question or not. It is only what I think about it.
Peter
Peter in Beijing ------------------- http://www.kaffa.cn/ ------------------- I have got a new website, just started to establish. If you have any question or suggestion, let me know and it is mostly appreciated.
BenB Senior Member Joined: 17 Jun 2004 Posts: 466 Location: Perth, Australia Expertise: Professional
Espresso: 2 x 2grp LM Grinder: 2 Swifts, Mazzer Robur
Posted Wed Jun 22, 2005, 9:15am Subject: Re: To be more clear about my understanding......
I'm not even sure if perfect espresso can be nailed down. I think that this is what we should all aim for - constant god shots - but coffee is an organic product which we cannot always predict. Great espresso can, and is in many places, served consistently but I think that perfect shots have too may variables and are too subjective a thing to say that they can be created in almost every shot.
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