onocoffee Senior Member Joined: 5 Sep 2002 Posts: 726 Location: Towson, Maryland Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: La Marzocco Linea 2AV, 3AV &... Grinder: 4 Mazzer Major Autos, Compak... Vac Pot: That crazy Bodum eSantos Drip: Bunn CWT Twin, Bunn Water... Roaster: Petroncini The Crumb
Posted Tue Jul 22, 2008, 6:36am Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
HAL9000 Said:
But as far as I can tell, the specialty coffee community is just hiding its collective head in the sand rather than dealing with the serious problems that this incident has "revealed." I put that last word in quotes because it is not exactly the case that this problem has not been apparent for a long time, it just, apparently, has not been apparent to the specialty coffee community before now. And based on your note, I wonder whether it is, even now...
The Third Wave of the Specialty Coffee Community is too busy looking in the mirror with self-congratulatory remarks about how clever they are, how much better they make a latte than Starbucks, and generally being full of themselves to realize that this "incident" is an absolutely embarrassing situation that could have easily been curtailed and controlled but was spun completely out of control because of egos run amok.
It seems that many within the community have missed the fact that reacting to the blog entry is a matter of choice. Restraint, focus and clarity are demanded in situations where your business has been harshly criticized. Reacting in the manner demonstrated is a lose-lose situation all the way around: for the owner, for the business, for the employees and for the community (including the SCAA and its' reputation). Of the comments I've read across the Internet, only the Third Wave Automatons (too busy congratulating themselves) actively encourage this kind of response/behaviour.
If the situation is such that milk control is the issue, then there are methods towards controlling consumption. Removing dairy from the condiment bar is one approach. Strict adherence to cup sizes is another. However, a disconnect exists between a shop modeling itself as "hardcore" that also offers 16z (and larger) cups - as recent media articles noted with the news of Intelligentsia dropping their 20z sizes.
Within my own organization, we control dairy waste by eliminating the condiment bar completely, and serving dairy and sweetener to order, and offer our beverages in appropriately sized cups. For example, a customer can most certainly receive an espresso served with ice (as opposed to pulled over ice), but it will either be in a 3z ceramic for here, or a 4z to-go cup (if they insist). Those who request a different sized cup for the same order are charged an additional fifty cents for the cup or the full-tilt iced latte price of $4.25 if they want "milk" with that cup...
It allows the customer to have what they want while respecting our margins.
"Coffee IS a sensory experience. We therefore want to do anything we can to maximize it.
...the fat lends and inherent richness to a milk based beverage (apart from the foam) that cannot be denied. Remember our mini-manifesto: richness is good."
Aaron De Lazzer - the milk frothing guide
It's fine to be a coffee purist but as we are talking about the coffee being altered by ice, temps, and preps (and a big part of this discussion is actually about the milk) I think it's fair to acknowledge that there is a real reason people are adding milk.....it tastes good to them.
It adds to the richness and in iced drinks it really smooths then out in a dramatic way.
I suppose if some sweetness or a splash of milk is the Pandora's box of addiction then drinker beware.
I love a pure SO shot don't get me wrong, but that is only one of my "drugs of choice" and in the Texas heat a little fat in my iced coffee feeds my demons. :) :)
John F
"coffee is bag to me. It always follow me like bag. I do love coffee. Its taste & aroma make me sweet~ . I happy happy day with coffee"
caferacer Senior Member Joined: 22 Mar 2004 Posts: 88 Location: NYC Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar Pulser Grinder: Rocky
Posted Tue Jul 22, 2008, 10:33am Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
And another thing, a touch of milk and sugar in an iced espresso (cooled first, then poured over ice) brings out a nice chocolatey flavor in the blends I typically use (Leftist, Black Cat).
Another another thing, the dollop of milk poured over the iced espresso in a clear glass creates a nice visual as the two liquids slowly intermingle. Then I ruin it by gulping the whole thing down.
Question, if I order an iced espresso in a 4 oz glass and ask for a little milk poured over it, should I be charged more? I don't think so. Not unless you also charge more for a regular coffee with milk.
Jasonian Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2005 Posts: 3,816 Location: Lubbock, TX Expertise: Professional
Posted Tue Jul 22, 2008, 1:05pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
onocoffee Said:
The Third Wave of the Specialty Coffee Community is too busy looking in the mirror with self-congratulatory remarks about how clever they are, how much better they make a latte than Starbucks, and generally being full of themselves to realize that this "incident" is an absolutely embarrassing situation that could have easily been curtailed and controlled but was spun completely out of control because of egos run amok.
It seems that many within the community have missed the fact that reacting to the blog entry is a matter of choice. Restraint, focus and clarity are demanded in situations where your business has been harshly criticized. Reacting in the manner demonstrated is a lose-lose situation all the way around: for the owner, for the business, for the employees and for the community (including the SCAA and its' reputation). Of the comments I've read across the Internet, only the Third Wave Automatons (too busy congratulating themselves) actively encourage this kind of response/behaviour.
If the situation is such that milk control is the issue, then there are methods towards controlling consumption. Removing dairy from the condiment bar is one approach. Strict adherence to cup sizes is another. However, a disconnect exists between a shop modeling itself as "hardcore" that also offers 16z (and larger) cups - as recent media articles noted with the news of Intelligentsia dropping their 20z sizes.
Within my own organization, we control dairy waste by eliminating the condiment bar completely, and serving dairy and sweetener to order, and offer our beverages in appropriately sized cups. For example, a customer can most certainly receive an espresso served with ice (as opposed to pulled over ice), but it will either be in a 3z ceramic for here, or a 4z to-go cup (if they insist). Those who request a different sized cup for the same order are charged an additional fifty cents for the cup or the full-tilt iced latte price of $4.25 if they want "milk" with that cup...
It allows the customer to have what they want while respecting our margins.
Posted Tue Jul 22, 2008, 4:30pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
I use half-and-half in drip on rare occasions. After a taste I usually think mmmm, just a little more. That richness really is wonderful, tempting, and satisfying. It’s not necessarily addictive (I’m proof). I've hardly ever used dairy in iced, though I like it a little more dilute.
Now I’m wondering about the science of what’s happening inside a shot: in the filter basket, as it hits the air at 1 bar, as it hits various surfaces or liquids at different temperatures? What’s happening to the solids, liquids, gases, and oils in there?
Can anyone point me to this kind of info? What I find is nearly all (understandably) based on more practical looks at technique and results.
Would knowing this sciencey stuff help much in understanding and predicting the results in different circumstances? Would there be less benefit compared to just better understanding various techniques and results?
Posted Tue Jul 22, 2008, 5:47pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
caferacer Said:
..... a touch of milk and sugar in an iced espresso (cooled first, then poured over ice) brings out a nice chocolatey flavor in the blends I typically use (Leftist, Black Cat).
Bean this week was Guatemala La Florencia from Sweet Marias at a light Full City roast. It worked well iced: pure milk chocolate, hint of vanilla (keep your crappy syrups away from this stuff!). Absolutely clean finish (maybe too clean) but nothing 'off' about the finish ( ie. like bitter, sour, acrid, etc) This is a simple easy coffee to like. Maybe a bit one dimensional, could use some berries, spice, or something else on top.
Jasonian Senior Member Joined: 8 Aug 2005 Posts: 3,816 Location: Lubbock, TX Expertise: Professional
Posted Tue Jul 22, 2008, 8:00pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
I have a possible theory that the espresso "shock" is just existing astringency being amplified by proportion to other tastes (or more accurately, tactile sensations) when it hits the ice.
For the love of all things holy, please don't take that as "truth". It's mere possible speculation at best. I have done zero testing to verify this theory.
Posted Wed Jul 23, 2008, 12:04pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
Iced Espresso? (!!!) There are lots of iced coffee drinks you might enjoy more; if you want the flavor of an espresso roast it might be better to make it as drip coffee, and better still to choose a roast specifically for drip coffee or some other process.
It’s a shame the public has been sold an idea that iced coffee drinks are a question of what flavorings to add to the milk and sugar; with a small amount of coffee being one of those flavorings. But there’s a big opportunity there.
Setting policies prevents people from using and developing their own good judgment and communication skills.
What I’ve learned here, and in the Imbibe magazine article mentioned earlier, has made me an even bigger fan of Iced Coffee, and focused me again on my own meager efforts to pull great shots (not to ice), even if it is 90 degrees out.
I’ve actually learned quite a bit from the discussion of this topic on CoffeeGeek. Thanks everyone.
Posted Wed Jul 23, 2008, 6:51pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
dalesun Said:
Iced Espresso? (!!!) There are lots of iced coffee drinks you might enjoy more; if you want the flavor of an espresso roast it might be better to make it as drip coffee, and better still to choose a roast specifically for drip coffee or some other process.
It’s a shame the public has been sold an idea that iced coffee drinks are a question of what flavorings to add to the milk and sugar; ..............
Most of what is sold as 'espresso roast' is simply burned and bitter. (I'm not referring to Counter Culture, Barefoot, Sumptown, etc. here. ;^) The tradition that 'espresso roast' is somewhat longer/slower/darker than a roast used for other brew is persistant. I'm a bit perplexed by this as the best coffees of the world all have the most to say in the middle to lighter roast. If espresso didn't work here, if this world of coffee was beyond the range of espresso, I would just use a french press.
Psyd Senior Member Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 844 Location: MON AZ Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Sylvia and Astoria Argenta... Grinder: Rocky and Astoria (Mazzer)...
Posted Wed Jul 23, 2008, 6:56pm Subject: Re: Murky Iced Espresso vs. Iced Americano Argument
onocoffee Said:
The Third Wave of the Specialty Coffee Community is too busy looking in the mirror with self-congratulatory remarks about how clever they are, how much better they make a latte than Starbucks, and generally being full of themselves to realize that this "incident" is an absolutely embarrassing situation that could have easily been curtailed and controlled but was spun completely out of control because of egos run amok.
Say what you want, but I went to the heart of the Green Monster in Seattle, and it just sucked. So does each and every one of the Starbuskses one each and every corner I pass on the way to the third wave coffee shop I go to to get my beans. Show me a Starbucks where their black apron (much less, their paper-hatted PBTC) can pull better shots than I can at my house, and then we'll talk.
OTOH, I've been to murky. Both the one in question, adn the Penn Ave shop before the gubmit revenooers shut ti down. The baristi were *not* the surly, 'I'm really a ____, this is just my day job' kinda baristi. I, too, ordered from the forbidden menu. The difference between my experience at murky and the writers, perhaps, is that I'm not a stubborn, loud-mouthed, jerk from Brooklyn. When the baristi told me that it was against the shops policy to alter the classic cappu (I ordered one for a bud who has caffeine issues) the barista suggested that I order a douple decaf cappuccino, dry, with 'room'. This, in effect, provides a drink very similar to the classic without violating the aesthetic of the shop. Same goes when I ordered the classic 'to-go'. They don't do it. I wanted a drink that contained the rations and qualities of the classic, but something that I could take into DC for a fairly hectic day. Like, eighteen hours hectic. Instead of railing at the barista for not giving me what i want, I asked (no, scratch that, ) simply waited while they volunteered) what would be a decent substitute, sometimes varying on only description. The cat admitted he was a jerk. My guess is the either he exaggerated the response of the barista, or that the barista took that one and only opportunity to become a giant ass, and then never did it again. Again, the guy ended up really liking the drink that was proposed as an alternate the second time. On top of that, Nick catches a buncha flack for telling the guy that he'll punch him in the dick if he ever shows his face again, because the guy suggests that he'll only be back with a can of accellerent and an ignitions source. Show of hands, who has an issue with a punch in the Jimmy top prevent arson? Bottom line, if the guy in line, in this case, isn't a jerk to start with, there is no story. Eye witnesses suggest that the barista in no way acted in the manner described by the blogger, and my personal experiences in teh shop back that up. How were y'all treated when you were in there?
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