Endtwo Junior Member Joined: 13 Mar 2013 Posts: 31 Location: Denmark Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Apscaso uno steel prof Grinder: Mahlkönig Vario w/ceramic... Vac Pot: french press
Posted Wed Mar 13, 2013, 1:46pm Subject: Taking the plunge...
So... Hi all and... well... im not the one supposed to say welcome, so what do I say..? Anyways, here goes. As for now im going to post up a lot of how-did-I-get-to-want-an-espressomachine-so-bad. Think of this as a sort of coffee diary. If you dont want to read it, im okay with that, im halfway doing this for my own sake, half way for the entertainment of others and a tiny bit for that very confused beginner out there, who is just like me.
First off, im danish, which makes my english not-near-perfect. Forgive me.
So, how did I go from only cheap, lousy instant coffee to making a aproxamitly 1000$ budget in just over a year? Well... first part of the answer is in my personality, it seems I dont get hobbies, I get obsessions. Kinda good I didnt start on drugs...
As I said, just over a year ago I drank instant coffee, then came christmas and my wife and I wished for a Dolce Gusto coffee maker (you know, one of those capsule/cartridge coffeethingies like nespresso, this one with more "kinds" of coffee but less good). And we got one, it was a huge step forewards and really expensive with a price per cup around 0.87 $. Didnt take me long to give up on the instant and move on to the french press my wife had, which we rarely used. It became a sort of everyday french press with freshly grinded (cheap) beans and weekends with the dolce gusto. I have to say, the grinder (which we still use) is a pretty good burr grinder. And with pretty good i mean compared to any grinder manufactered by a likewise kitchen-supplies-company. So in terms of real coffee geeks... well youd say crappy and not espresso capable
After something like 4-6 months I sorta wanted something more authentic. More real coffee - so what did I do? Id buy a GAT stovetop mocha pot (beliving it could do espresso, did learn different quite a shot while after). Anyways I was pretty happy with it, and until my purchase of a real espresso machine itll do. At first Id use it all wrong... water in bottom, coffee in filter and nothing in top (which isnt wrong). Then Id put it on the stovetop (still not wrong) and turn the heat to max (wrong). Id microwave some milk to random temperature (below boilingpoint) and mix. Then when the range of the stovetop thingy wasnt good enough i started talking about buying a lowend esprosso maschine. Think 200 $. Luckily my father-in-law told me I could do great coffee on the stovetop if I just did it right, so I started researching. Apperently the trick was low heat so that the water took its time being pressed through the filter. Made a huge difference. Now my coffee tasted og a lot more. Christmas came again and I decided that a 200$ espresso machine couldnt do as nice a job as my stovetop. Maybe wrong, maybe not, I dont have regrets on that decission. In stead I bought the bialetti tuttocrema milk frother/foamer (my english no good here). And now I could make random coffee/milk mixture until I geeked out and figured ratios between milk and coffee. On the way I upgraded beans from the supermarket espressobean to segefrado. Probably still crap compared to what you guys drink, but remember, Im studying, I have two kids, that kinda limits my budget. To be honest: Its not espresso, therefore its not macchiato, cappucino or latte. But they come close enough for me... for a while. And now its march, three months after christmas, two after the tuttocrema arrived in the mail. And now I soooo badly want a real machine.
So thats what Im brewing in the moment, of course it hadnt been new brewer, new chapter, new begining, everything is more in shades of gray (not the book). As the wish for a real espressomachine reappered, I started looking around. There is something like one well reputated coffee equipment dealer in Denmark, and a bunch of okay reputated. It happens so, that the well reputatet one has a showroom not long from where I live, and had taken time to answer questions along the line, when I started thinking about that 200$ machine, even though I told him I was a window shopper. So as for now I want to buy from him. Ive also read a shitload, sorry, bunch of reviews on this site, along with spying on forum threads, and reading the how to buy an espresso machine guide. Oh yeah, and I realised that the 200 $ piece of plastic would get me no where, and that a new grinder was a must... (as I said earlier, I dont get hobbies, I get obsessions, and this is, to be honest probably just a start and a size of budget that takes the before mentioned children and income in mente). So now I got a budget of 5500 dk kr, which is about 1000$ (just under).
I have a need for new, not because its new but because I dont have to worry about the machine being taken care of by a previous owner. Not much trust there. Especially since we in Denmark got quite hard (og chalky) water
I havent decided anything completly, since I kinda want to see if my vendor can strike me a deal. Im guessing that he can. As Denmark is a small country, and as we arent all coffegeeks there are some machines I cannot get hold of, amongst others the cc1 (as he mainly has Ascaso and gaggia, with a few others like the Oscar, miss silvia). So along that line, reading a shi sorry. A bunch of reviews and taking design into account (as I like good design but it musnt be on account of quality) Im at the moment kinda in love with the Ascaso steel series (uno pro or uno pro PID). I could get a miss silvia but it seems theres more isusses with that, than the steel line (according to reviews and especialy rumors of rust). Also the steel line comes with a decent tamper, that will add extra cash for the grinder. I would love a duo steel or an Oscar but they just dont leave any room for grinder... so unless my vendor is unrealisticly generous... or an exeptionally bad buisnessman thats not gonna happen. Also, knockbox, tampermat and waterfilter thingy for removing a chalk in water seems like good investments...
As for grinders im sorta nowhere. I thought I had it figured. Within budget and with some goodwill from my vendor I should be able to get a Gaggia MDF, maybe IF im very lucky (or go no PID) I could get a rocky... But now I see how you all are saying around here that the rocky isnt what its reputated for... So im eyeballing the ascaso i2 (about same price as the Gaggia) and the ascaso i-steel (same price as rocky...). I think Ill like to hear what you guys think of setup, also Im going to ask my vendor...
I guess, if I want any thoughts of setup from anyone thats meaningfull, I should answer the basics...: 1) What kind of drinks do you like/want to make? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's capabilities.) Espresso, machiato, cappucino and latte 2) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself needing to make at any one time? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's ability to work continuously.) average two, maybe two doubleshots. However Im mostly to espresso and machiato, the misses is the cappucino/latte one... I do drink an occasional cappucino, but this lowers the milkfrothcapicity (is that a word?!). Anyways when entertaining I could go french press, as I am still fond of it, but would like to be able to do 4-5 cappucinos, those can however easely be singleshots (if that isnt calling for a whole different price range). 3) How many drinks, on average, do you see yourself making in any given week? (This will tell us what you need in terms of a machine's durability.) Average week... dunno 7 or 14 doubleshots depends on well... if I can live on a singleshot or not... 4) Can you plumb a machine directly into the water supply, or do you want/need a pour over machine with its own reservoir? Due to water, I would probably prefer watertank 5) Do you have a 20-amp circuit available, or only a (standard) 15-amp circuit? Dunno. Have 220 volts however. European standards, baby! 6) What is your budget for a new machine? Does that also include a grinder? If not, what is your budget for a grinder?" 5500 dkkr, which is roughly 1000$. A little less, however, it seems my vendor is a little cheaper than seattle coffeegear (not including discounts and pair packages). So 1000 isnt that wrong to calculate with... It does include grinder and extra needs as knockbox, mat, tamper (if not the steel line) and the water filter thingy... Ive got a pitcher from Ikea (bought it to help my 2 year old pour his own water, when dining). It is small, but my guess is that two cinos can be done in it...
As for this thread, as I said its going to be a diary describing ups and downs with my setup etc... Im not quite sure it has been put in the right place, but it did seem like the least wrong place to put it... Otherwise I put my trust in the moderators.
-Sune
Moderator requests you remove the link to your vendor.
Posted Wed Mar 13, 2013, 8:32pm Subject: Re: Taking the plunge... (going to be ongoing)
Sune, welcome to CG. Get the grinder first, then what's left over purchase a machine. As you alluded to, Leave $75-$100 (USD) for a proper tamper, milk pitcher, knockbox (for your spent coffee pucks) and cleaning supplies. BTW, your English is awesome, no worries.
I would say, in the future, be a bit more concise. All that vertical reading can give one eyestrain!
Endtwo Junior Member Joined: 13 Mar 2013 Posts: 31 Location: Denmark Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Apscaso uno steel prof Grinder: Mahlkönig Vario w/ceramic... Vac Pot: french press
Posted Thu Mar 14, 2013, 3:20am Subject: Re: Taking the plunge... (going to be ongoing)
So... post editted slightly as it seemed I started out breaking rules... Ill try not to break to many rules the first week or so...
I guess that leaves me going in the deep end of the grinderforum... what to as Ive no idea of what to buy for grinder... Guess the Vario would be a safe bet, and then I could afford a Gaggia Classic... Can the Classic do what i need from it? Macap m2 / m2m / m2d and Gaggia Classic could do to... Otherwise theres still the posibility of Ascaso Isteel or i2... or the rocky. I cant really find any information on the isteel, and the i2 and rocky seems to be a lot less than the macap and the vario (Which by the way looks like the baratza but bears the name of Mahlkönig... Something to do with european market or...?!). I could maybe stretch budget a tiny bit and get a vario and uno steel (no pro)... No, i am now completely lost again.
At this point I should point out that I might be speaking for the steel line, not just because it got great reviews on CG, but also because I fell a bit in love with design... which, I know, is stupid.
However, and im not saying youre not giving me great advice. It just seems to me to be easier to afford a grinder upgrade than a machine upgrade. Especially since I dont have much belief in the ability to sell used without gigantic losses in this part of the world... Same for grinder, however taking a 50-70 % loss on af halfway expensive grinder in order to buy a new one seems (without calculations) to be easier to get over... Then again, I could keep the one I got... crappy grinder = crappy coffee... righty.
Also, perherps stupid question: It seems to me a lot of bundles/combos etc keeps the same brand, like the silvia/rocky or the i-steel/uno steel pro... any reason for that (maybe besides design)? I fail to see how a specific brand of grinder should be better to a specific brand of machine...
AntWilliams90 Senior Member Joined: 4 Feb 2013 Posts: 44 Location: Warwickshire, UK Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic Grinder: Mahlkonig Vario Home Roaster: Dieckmann Rostmeister
Posted Thu Mar 14, 2013, 5:52am Subject: Re: Taking the plunge... (going to be ongoing)
So... post editted slightly as it seemed I started out breaking rules... Ill try not to break to many rules the first week or so...
Hahaha...yeah, just wait till the second week to do that! ;)
Guess the Vario would be a safe bet, and then I could afford a Gaggia Classic
Yup....that's what I have, and it works well! I'm now just looking into a PID for my Gaggia! :)
but also because I fell a bit in love with design... which, I know, is stupid
Not stupid at all! It's important that you love how it looks - whatever set-up you choose, it's going to take up a bit of space, so it needs to look nice! You don't choose a car, or a sofa (or pretty much anything) JUST based on how well it works, looks are totally important!!
It just seems to me to be easier to afford a grinder upgrade than a machine upgrade
Ummm, well if you start with a cheap grinder and an expensive machine, then a grinder upgrade will be cheaper than a machine upgrade. If you start with an expensive grinder and a cheap machine, then a machine upgrade will be cheaper than a grinder upgrade. So what is actually important is; what makes a better espresso? Ignoring other issues (such as skill/beans/water etc.) Cheap(er) machine + Cheap(er) grinder = Bad espresso Expensive machine + Cheap(er) grinder = Mediocre espresso Cheap(er) machine + Expensive grinder = Good espresso Expensive machine + Expensive grinder = Godly espresso
Obviously this is very generalised, but it tends to stand true, and is why coffeegeeks will always say "Don't go cheap on the grinder!"
As soon as you sit down to a cup of hot coffee, your boss will ask you to do something which will last until the coffee is cold.
Endtwo Junior Member Joined: 13 Mar 2013 Posts: 31 Location: Denmark Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Apscaso uno steel prof Grinder: Mahlkönig Vario w/ceramic... Vac Pot: french press
Posted Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:21pm Subject: Re: Taking the plunge... (going to be ongoing)
Yeah... honestly I think its maybe just because... well like so many others I think of the machine the coffee is pouring out of... None the less, as I am neither a politician nor making a televisionshow Im setting my mind on listening to the advice of people who know more than I do... and the never go down on grinder mantra should be a part of this... Therfore I am down to the - Vario (Mahlkönig, dont think there is a real difference here...) - Macap m2 - or the Macap m2d (which seems to be different from the m2 in being able to program like the vario)
They all seem to be in the same price range in Denmark, just below $520. I know the Vario is quite popular in here, anything speaking for the macap?!
I take it that those grinders grind the crap outta say the Rocky and the like...?
Also it has come in to mind maybe to up my budget a tiny bit, so I can keep on the steel line... damn you coffeegeek.
Posted Thu Mar 14, 2013, 12:57pm Subject: Re: Taking the plunge... (going to be ongoing)
No grinder "grinds the crap" out of the Rocky, per se. The Rocky can help you make fine shots. It's just that it has a bit too much variance between clicks. Some modifications can be made to keep they burr holder a bit more steady, up to a point. That said, I sold mine years ago and upgraded to a Mazzer SJ. Almost 5 years ago I discovered the Baratza line, and haven't looked back.
If you are mainly doing espresso, I'd go with the Vario, making sure it has the ceramic burrs, not the steel.
If you do a LOT if drip, press pot, then the less expensive Preciso would be a good choice. Both grinders move back and forth beautifully,. but IMO the Preciso's coarser grind pleases me a wee bit more. I own both.
At this point, I don't believe this "journey" format is either in your best interest, or CG's. I'd suggest starting a thread in the Espresso Grinders Forum perhaps titled "My grinder journey begins now. Then in the Espresso Machines Forum, "My machine journey begins now."
You can place a link to this thread in both new threads as a reference for your comments.
Posted Thu Mar 14, 2013, 1:19pm Subject: Re: Taking the plunge... (going to be ongoing)
Ascaso is one of the "top dogs" in the espresso industry. I myself own a Silvia (used for $350). I also own a Macap MX and It's a tank. I thik redardless on what you pick you should will have a good set up. I honestly recomment the Silvia. Your working with a machine that has commercial grade internals. As for rust this is a common issue with non stainless steel commercial espresso machines. It's an easy fix. Also you need to neglect your drip tray cleaning to even encounter issues with rust. I have been on the UK ebay site a few times and noticed great deals on the Silvia. As for the grinder, all 3 are great brands. The Ascaso i2 is a good deal but the Macap M2 will serve you well. I plan to use mt MX model in a cafe.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,313 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Fri Mar 15, 2013, 10:41am Subject: Re: Taking the plunge... (going to be ongoing)
Sounds like you guys do a lot of milk drinks. If this increases as you get better at making espresso you might outgrow a single boiler pretty fast. The steaming is what slows them down. I like my Vario w and Oscar combo. I can steam like a dragon with Oscar because he is an HX the machine waits on me.
I did it for your budget because I got a used Oscar. (half the new price) But you might not have access to used machines even if you wanted one. You could do hand grinding and put more towards the machine. Hand grinders are probably easier to find over seas than the US. $40 grinder will work for espresso.
I would not buy a NEW Silvia, it is over priced for what it is. I would probably get a CC1 if I had to pick one of the single boilers.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
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