Guess what I'm saying is "GET OVER IT!". The Starbucks that you remember is gone. But if you remember any of the stuff in the earlier paragraphs, that's a good thing. Remember it fondly as you savor your next cuppa. Roast your beans, grind them to perfection, brew them in your choosen manner, and sip away. But remember that it was Starbucks and the small startup companies like them all over the place that made that places like your favorite coffee bar reality today. I hate to sound sappy, but I feel that I owe alot of my coffee pleasure to the people at companies like Starbucks, Stewart Brothers (aka Seattle's Best), and the rest.john
John, how right you are. Get over it? It was never a problem in the first place. I like Starbucks. I own a wad of stock. I hope they have 20,000 stores. But I don't drink the stuff. I never looked at them as great espresso.
My only disagreement with Starbucks is when it implys in its marketing that it was the impetus behind the American espresso movement. It is simply not true. Schultz picked up on an existing trend. As they say, one way to lead is to find a parade and run to the front. Schultz did that brilliantly.
That said, I do give Starbucks credit for what it did do: educate millions of people on the difference between average coffee and good coffee, the different varietals, and the plight of the coffee farmer. I learned a lot. That is one of the reasons I like Starbucks as a company. It is excellent at being an evangelist for good coffee (but not great coffee).
fateagk Said:
Funny, because all of these places are now owned by the now Starbucks Corporation, and any quality they offered has been replaced by a Starbucks Corporation cost formula. The problem is not that Starbucks has traded it's quality in becoming the world's leading coffee corp., but they have eaten up so many of the other coffee companies out there that were offering quality coffee. This is happening at all levels, from the larger franchises all the way down to the little coffee shops that we love. -Andrew
Starbucks bought SBC and Torrefazione, both tiny in comparison. It bought Seattle Coffee Company in England. But generally it has not been buying up other stores. I haven't seen any evidence of widespread consolidation in the espresso café market. There are far more non-Starbucks espresso cafés in the world than Starbucks cafés. Even here in Seattle. The independent or small chain is safe.
In fact, I think this is a grand opportunity for the independent or small chain. There is no high-end coffee chain in Seattle with any sort of brand name recognition, and this is the most saturated market outside of Italy. The biggest is Café Ladro with eight stores. Torrefazione was doing great coffee but that was lost when SBC bought them, and now that Starbucks owns them, well... Seattle is the very definition of a wide-open market.
P.S.: If there's room for truly high-end coffee here in Seattle, then there's room in all cities where Starbucks has done the intitial education of the market.
thanks everyone for your imput. What i gather is that if i work really hard, one day i can be great at serving rubbish coffee. Which i guess is better than being ad at it. Where i am here we don't have the little coffee shops you're speaking of. It's either us or Costas which serve coffee that taste s like creasote to me.Can't force it down with a funnel. But im tripping accross the pond soon so i'll be sure to look one up and taste the difference.
That could put an unimaginably huge heck of a lot of (very) used machines on the market ... or in the landfill. Anybody know what's going to happen with them?
Yeah, I do! I scored a used Super Jolly real cheap. A lot of them are going to liquidators and they are marketing to coffee shop owners. I will say that while getting a grinder cheap is pretty low risk, getting a used LM is pretty high risk. You don't know how well they have been maintained. I've already heard one story where the machine had to be repaired and that cost almost as much as a new machine.
Most of the equipment slowly shows up on eBay and not all at once so the market isn't flooded.
Hahahahaha....here, put your face under my La Pavoni while I pull a shot...that will de-program you! But the trend for autos has continued and the quality and knowledge of the SB staff has disipated like the aroma of a free refill of coffee at a Denny's. Starbucks is still an ok place to get a latte, when the other choice is a styrofoam cup from 7-11.
I first noticed the quality dropping in 2000, in Houston...is was in an SB on a Saturday morning and there was a huge line, staff disorganized, no one in charge and some kid yammering with a regular in the sitting area. Add to this a poor delivery guy who needed a signature. The kid finally joined the fracas and started serving people. He gave my latte to a guy who ordered drip (I do 4 shot or more lattes...it could have killed the guy who was expecting Breakfast Blend.) and gave me his, then grabbed it back.....as I had not had any caffine that day, I was not in the mood. Then the condiment bar was a wreck...and the place had only been open a 1/2 hour or so....I finally said "It's not that f&@%ing hard...you take the order, the barista pulls the drink, you hand it to the customer...let's get our s$&t together folks!" (before anyone asks, yes, I have worked in restaurants, both front and back, staff and chef, sous-chef, head waiter, etc....and I would never serve a guest a crappy espresso - they were black, topped with a cloud of gold, wafting perfume as I brought it to the table, warning the guest that the cup was very hot.....)
Anyway, I took my latte-like drink and went on with the day. The next week, I was bacj during the day and someone from the Saturday mess was there. The manager came up and apologized and gave me coupons.... I asked who the lazy employee was...he said he was....wait for it......a management trainee!!!! So, judging by recent events, he must have been promoted!
I have seen the SAs all over the place. Recently, I called several SBs to locate a tamper ( I had read that SBs had one which fit the La Pavoni PF -51mm...yes, I could have bought one on the web...but I wanted to feel the weight.......I have since purchased a RB)...I had to explain what the thing was. One guy tried to tell me I needed an entire group...the only time I got thorugh was when I made motions with my hands that I was tamping a shot....also, SB has gradually stopped selling accesories.....
So, now is time for coffee lovers to fill the void....yes, wine coolers and white zinfandel have opened the world of viticulture to the masses...SB has let everyone know that there is coffee other than boiled swill offered as-much-as-you-can-drink at Denny's. We need to let people know that there is good coffee, excellent coffee out there...and they can even do it themselves (Gasp! Heresy!) I hope the Barista Guild will target this area and open the eyes of coffee lovers so the fine independent cafes can thrive....which is a good segue to an alternative experience.....I went to my local roasters (a 7 minute drive from the nearest SB...beans are their thing, so I don't think they are a threat to Lord Starbucks...there is a satire in there somewhere...an adventure maybe "Lord of the Portafilters"..."One portafilter to rule them all, One portafilter to find them. One portafilter to bring them all and in the darkness bind them."...but I digress)...
I ordered a cappuccino...the barista made the drink, using freshly ground coffee, regular machine (he had to tamp and everything!!!), frothed the milk...and gave it to me and then he went and weigh out my espresso fresh roast. The drink was sublime, smooth, tingling, dark cofee liquor thorugh a satin foam. The palate was amazing, with citrus and chocolate hints in the blend which clung to the toungue, the roast just dark enough to hint at the flames used.....
I wanted to take the cup and drive back to the SB and show them what it really looks like...but I didn't want to make the kids cry....or be chased through the parking lot by Suzy Suburb in her Excursion, decaf soy latte mochaccino in one hand, cell in the other screaming "How dare you make me think! Be different? Alternatives?! Eeeek!" <Vroom, vroom>
SO I returned home and fondly looked at my La Pavoni, raising and lowering the lever, chanting "there's no place like home, there's no place like home."
;o)
terryz Said:
Repeat after me.....
"The Verismo is just simply a superior machine."
Damn, that is funny even a day later. Funny, funny, funny!
Ha.
If we had those cool Smileys like other forums I would put one right XXXhereXXX!
Well, I just got back from the lower Upper Peninsula where espresso exists--in its most primitive form (mostly to the gratitude of downstaters and flatlanders who are just so relieved to get a cappa from an actual barista working a machine, instead of a gas-station vending machine). The coffeehouse where I sometimes perform had a single-group machine I'd never heard of; and microfoam or latte art was dismissed as for those "conoisseurs up in Marquette." At least it tasted okay through the soy and half-and-half (no cream). Nearly fainted when I saw Superior Coffee (the mega-wholesaler) was their supplier--who knows how old the beans are? Told them about Dead River Coffee and this site. The mall coffee shop was even worse--though they had a NS auto 2-group, the baristas (who also sold wine and gourmet tchotchkes) scalded the soymilk (vanilla only) within an inch of its life--they didn't even have half-and-half, much less cream. I asked for a breve and got back a look as if I'd asked for a shot of Tabasco in my coffee. (Hadn't brought the Presso--thought that in that town it'd be coals to Newcastle. Sigh).
So all the way home I was jonesing for a real cappa. Finally reached the Lake Forest tollway oasis and voila--the green mermaid. Better than a poke in the eye with a short stick, I thought; so I went in and ordered (with trepidation) a double-tall cappa made with heavy cream. First inkling that something was different was that the cashier asked me whether I wanted half-and half or whipping cream. Then as the barista was steaming the cream, I heard him grumble, "I HATE these stupid superautos!" He then handed my drink over to me and said, "One breve cap, here you go." I looked down--and there was a rosetta. So there's hope.
Sandy www.sandyandina.com ------------------- Life's too short to drink lousy coffee, play crummy guitars and write with ballpoint pens.
Yes....traveling and needing coffee can make you feel like a pilgrim in a heathen land.....I just drove from Denver to Dallas and back....took my own brew for the trip down...laughing manaically as I zoomed past the "crap-in-a-cup" offerings, while sipping my French roasted Columbia/medium roasted Kona blend.....the trip back was less satisfying...the hotel offering only the standard dirt in a prepacked filter option.....one green mermaid on the highways between Denver and Dallas...in Colby, KS I believe...and yes, better than a poke in the eye....got a latte and a drip as backup. Arrived home to the La Pavoni sparkling on the counter....safe at tlast! ;o)
ChicagoSandy Said:
Well, I just got back from the lower Upper Peninsula where espresso exists--in its most primitive form (mostly to the gratitude of downstaters and flatlanders who are just so relieved to get a cappa from an actual barista working a machine, instead of a gas-station vending machine). The coffeehouse where I sometimes perform had a single-group machine I'd never heard of; and microfoam or latte art was dismissed as for those "conoisseurs up in Marquette." At least it tasted okay through the soy and half-and-half (no cream). Nearly fainted when I saw Superior Coffee (the mega-wholesaler) was their supplier--who knows how old the beans are? Told them about Dead River Coffee and this site. The mall coffee shop was even worse--though they had a NS auto 2-group, the baristas (who also sold wine and gourmet tchotchkes) scalded the soymilk (vanilla only) within an inch of its life--they didn't even have half-and-half, much less cream. I asked for a breve and got back a look as if I'd asked for a shot of Tabasco in my coffee. (Hadn't brought the Presso--thought that in that town it'd be coals to Newcastle. Sigh).
So all the way home I was jonesing for a real cappa. Finally reached the Lake Forest tollway oasis and voila--the green mermaid. Better than a poke in the eye with a short stick, I thought; so I went in and ordered (with trepidation) a double-tall cappa made with heavy cream. First inkling that something was different was that the cashier asked me whether I wanted half-and half or whipping cream. Then as the barista was steaming the cream, I heard him grumble, "I HATE these stupid superautos!" He then handed my drink over to me and said, "One breve cap, here you go." I looked down--and there was a rosetta. So there's hope.
I've been reading the posts on this topic with great interest. I live in a smaller, town in the Midwest. I have to ask(all respect intended):
If I had a coffee house would the "average" customer(and most in my area are) really know the difference or care if their espresso drinks were made on a traditional or a super-auto machine?
Given the fact that there are few or no skilled baristas in my area ( and given the cost to pay them a respectable wage) I would have to hire non-skilled people. Wouldn't the super-autos make more sense for me to run a profitable business?
I think there is more to it than just convenience ... with a superauto I would be afraid of ending up "captive" in a way.
Given that both your grinder and machine are "integrated" into one big electronic thing, if something goes wrong, some little thing breaks you are (please pardon my language) totally screwed until the service person can get to you. If you live in some small town in the middle of nowhere, getting your machines serviced might be more difficult. With a machine with more than one group, if one group is not working, you can use the other, if a grinder breaks you can use your spare. You could always have a spare superauto but the costs might be very important. On the other hand you could have a semi-auto spare setup but that would require baristas who can use them properly.
You also have to think as to how easy it is to play around with, for example, the grind setting of those machines.
I don't know if they can pull quality shots ... maybe they can when set properly ... but every time I've been served something from a superauto I got a bad watery shot with a thin ring of blond crema and when I took a milk drink I got a bad watery shot with styrofoam on top.
You could always train yourself and then train skilled baristas. It might cost you more in the begining but if what you serve is of exceptional quality, wouldn't that attract more clients and hence increase your profits and your ability to pay your baristas more?
I guess it depends what kind of business you want to run, what importance espresso would play in your business concept, what volume you expect and who your target market is.
Where in Wisconsin are you? How small is your town? Is it along a major highway enroute to a tourist destination (e.g., Madison, Green Bay, Door County, Minneapolis, North Woods hunting/fishing/camping centers or the Upper Peninsula)? Way up in Marquette, MI (not exactly a teeming metroplex, albeit a college town) Dead River Coffee Roasters has a couple of 2-group semis, as well as several grinders--and they pour latte art (and roast terrific beans). In Escanaba, 8th St. Coffee has a single-group auto and a couple of grinders; their current barista doesn't pour art (yet) but has been turned on to this site; the owner is currently serving with his Reserve unit (at age 51!!!) and is a crackerjack barista. Little Marinette, WI (across the river from the U.P.) boasts two coffeehouses (one of which has live music) within three blocks of each other. In tiny Crivitz, WI (a small inland resort village on the Peshtigo River), Thunder Brew Coffee runs a custom (while-you-wait, you specify the roast, quantity and bean) roastery and espresso bar in a glorified Quonset hut, and IIRC, does not use a superauto--they didn't pour latte art but they did pour me a perfectly textured heavy-cream breve last time I was there. (They also sell their own house-brewed toddy extract for campers and other brewed coffee lovers who have only the capacity and/or equipment to boil water--not bad but ultimately pricey). All it takes is a dedicated trained owner--or a trainer from the bean supplier, and a trainee or two willing to learn and then educate the customers to expect quality espresso and espresso drinks. If local customers' only exposure to espresso and cappuccino are crema-laden flavorful shots and perfectly textured froth, then that's what they will expect! So much the better for the coffee culture at large--it can only raise the bar across the board. A discount clothing chain (Syms) said it best: "An educated consumer is our best customer."
Sandy www.sandyandina.com ------------------- Life's too short to drink lousy coffee, play crummy guitars and write with ballpoint pens.
Remoteness is not an excuse...on a NATO exercise in 1983, I was served superb coffee by the NCO in charge of a cantina, sponsored by the Turkish Army, 50 km from the then-Soviet border. I comes down to the quality demanded by the consumer. Starbucks gets away with this because a majority of their customers can barely stnd still long enough to get the drinks....I doubt they would accept the same quality in a different environment. Also, the costs are ridiculous, but people pay for speed and convenience....in general, the quality has decreased in favor of volume (always a danger in publicly traded companies)...so there is now a gaping opening for enterprising cofeegeeks to move in a provide support and market share to independent cafes. Don't undersell the taste in rural areas...when I worked as a chef, the best produce, cheese, milk goods came from the farmer, not the wholesaler. When traveling, where will you find the best food? Big chains or the hole-in-the-wall where the cook has her kids running tables? Almost always the latter. If all you have is SBs in the area, that is fine, but as the local CoffeeGeek, you should let your friends know that there is something better...word will spread. Also, non-traditional sources, such as a local restaurant...a regular machine a good grinder and a trained owner can make the place an oasis of caffeinated delights. I grew up in a small city (Springfield, IL...hardly a culinary mecca) and my first exposure to good caffee was as a result of reading in the library. In the end, it comes down to customer demands and compromise. As for your business, You can train the staff as they are hired....if you have no competition, you will have minimal turn-over. Pay them a decent, graduated wage, based on your business plan and their acquired skill, but also add more responsibility. An assistant manager should also be an awesome barista. :o)
ChicagoSandy Said:
All it takes is a dedicated trained owner--or a trainer from the bean supplier, and a trainee or two willing to learn and then educate the customers to expect quality espresso and espresso drinks. If local customers' only exposure to espresso and cappuccino are crema-laden flavorful shots and perfectly textured froth, then that's what they will expect! So much the better for the coffee culture at large--it can only raise the bar across the board. A discount clothing chain (Syms) said it best: "An educated consumer is our best customer."
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