cooncatbob Junior Member Joined: 21 Apr 2008 Posts: 30 Location: California Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Carezza Grinder: Rocky DL Roaster: I Roast 2
Posted Wed May 14, 2008, 2:34pm Subject: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
I'm looking to upgrade my grinder for espresso and the choices can be rather confusing. One of the grinders I'm considering is the Ascaso Innova, but it comes in 2 version, one with flat burrs one with conical burrs. The espressoparts.com says the flat burrs are better for espresso but some of the post I've read here suggest that the conical burrs are better. What are the advantages of each type? Thanks Bob.
TagTeamJesus Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Posts: 190 Location: San Francisco, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Silvia with Watlow PID Grinder: Macap MC4; QuickMill... Drip: French press, oui, oui!
Posted Wed May 14, 2008, 3:21pm Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
good question, Robert.
I just read that same set of statments on espressoparts.com. Here's what I make of it: if you were comparing Mazzers to Mazzers, the conicals are believed to produce better grind quality, with the coffee traveling down the length of the burrs to be exposed to a larger grinding surface area. That's one theory, at least, on why conicals are better.
However, when comparing Ascaso's to Ascaso's, there is another variable mixed in there: the make-up of the grinding chamber and disk that holds the burrs in place. Though the I-2's are conical, they are encased in plastic composite. So, it yields a great grind quality, but the other parts aren't as sturdy and long lasting as the I-1, which has flat burrs mounted in all brass. From everything I can decipher having never owned an Ascaso, the I-2 conical grinders would still be great for espresso. The burrs are the same as in the Nemox Lux, and the Lux performed great in Jim Schulman's Titan Grinder Project up against the Robur.
TagTeamJesus Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Posts: 190 Location: San Francisco, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Silvia with Watlow PID Grinder: Macap MC4; QuickMill... Drip: French press, oui, oui!
Posted Wed May 14, 2008, 3:31pm Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
another difference is the conicals on the I-2 are only 38 mm, whereas the flats on the I-1 are larger at 52 mm. Again, larger burrs are considered better for producing a good grind consistency. However, really, the I-2's should perform admirably.
Here's the link to the Titan Grinder Project....again, look for the Nemox Lux with the same burrs as the I-2: Click Here (www.home-barista.com)
Also consider the less expensive Ascaso i-Mini's with the same burrs but perhaps a cheaper housing:
Dooglas Senior Member Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 383 Location: Portland, OR Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar, La Pavoni Grinder: Ascaso, Solis Drip: Cuisinart CBC, Bodum press Roaster: GeneCafe, Caffe Rosto
Posted Sun May 18, 2008, 12:16pm Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
As others have pointed out, it is not so simple as conical versus flat burrs. After all, the Baratzas all have conical burrs as well. And those Mazzer Minis everybody loves have flat burrs. When it comes down to the Ascasos, I have used both models. I find the importer's advice to be right. The flat burr I-1 produces the most consistent grind for espresso. This is probably a function of the bigger diameter burrs and the much beefier all brass burr carrier. I strongly recommend the I-1 in either the doser or doserless configuration. The Ascaso stepless worm gear adjustment is great, though it really means this is a dedicated espresso grinder. The smaller I-3 (mini) uses the same burrs as the I-2 and is a good budget grinder. I have not found it to be in the same league as the I-1 though.
Keepitsimple Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 173 Location: UK Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Reneka Techno Grinder: Mazzer Mini-e
Posted Sun May 18, 2008, 1:37pm Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
I haven't used the I-1, but did have a brief ownership of an I-2. It was some time ago, so manufacturing quality may have improved, but it was utterly useless as an espresso grinder.
Reason ? the plastic burr carrier had so much play you could not get a consistent grind from it. As you turned the adjustment knob the hopper (and therefore the burr carrier into which it fits) wobbled back and forth as the worm gear engaged. I wasn't too impressed with the overall build quality either. The plastic spout had cracked, and the worm gear mechanism was pretty rough too. To be fair, they are fairly cheap though, and you can't expect commercial build quality at that price.
I suppose with the use of teflon tape etc. it may have been made workable, but as it was less than a week old, it went back to the supplier.
I would hope and expect that the I-1 with a brass burr carrier would be much more capable, but I was by then put off Ascaso (aka Innova), and bought a Mazzer instead. (Which is in a different league as far as manufacturing quality is concerned..sadly, also as far as price is concerned ;o)
TagTeamJesus Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Posts: 190 Location: San Francisco, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Silvia with Watlow PID Grinder: Macap MC4; QuickMill... Drip: French press, oui, oui!
Posted Wed May 21, 2008, 7:37pm Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
cooncatbob, congrats on your Rocky. I'm sure it will serve you well.
Keepitsimple, Interesting account of the I-2. This is actually a very important issue for me because I read so many accounts of this burr set being quite good for espresso...the i-Mini, I-2, Nemox Lux, and Le'lit PL53 all have this same set of burrs and I recommend them often as good grinders at a lower price point. But you have found that it was "utterly useless", so I have to take a step back and find out what you mean. I own the QuickMill stepless grinder, which I've never been particularly fond of due to odd metallic sounds down at finer settings and due to a lesser grind consistency when compared with my Macap. However, as much as I complain about the QuickMill, it can definitely perform for espresso and do it well. Maybe not a completely uniform grind to the naked eye and I sometimes see the hopper shake a tad when grinding, but evidently it's more than adequate because the results in the cup are outstanding. So I am wondering if your account of the I-2 is similar: Despite a less than perfect grind consistency, was the I-2 able to hone in on a bean and produce good shots in the cup? How much time did you spend with this grinder? Your Mazzer and my Macap are bada$$, but from what I have read, these other grinders perform well.
Any other i-Mini, I-2, Nemox Lux, or Le'lit PL53 owners out there have anything to say about the quality of these grinders for espresso?
Posted Wed May 21, 2008, 9:21pm Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
I have been using the LeLit PL53 daily since January this year. No play (Zero, that I can tell) and good consistent even grind. Looking at how this burr set is 'set' in the threaded plastic carrier it is possible (...depending on manufaturing tolerances) that there could be a problem with some units. The problem description sounds to me like a manufacturing defect: should have been returned for replacement. Also, after reading about the Rocky 'teflon tape mod', just having the carrier made of metal is not enough to insure there is no slop in this critical area.
Another area the Lelit has continued to deliver is in clump free, static free grind. Even though the burr carrier is plastic ( which can cause static/clumping problems) the Lelit has somehow managed to keep delivering a nice fluffy clump free grind that I can simply pour and level in the basket. No stirring, WDT, or futzing! This 'feature' alone has made the Le'lit the real deal for me. Once in a while (once a week or so) it will dump a big boulder in the basket. That indicates it's time to take off the spout and clean out the shoot area.
EDIT: I wanted to add a comment about how the conical burr shape is more critical of burr alignment than a flat burr. On a Flat burr, the X and Y alignment is not nearly as critical, as long as the burrs are parallel and the 'Z' adjustment of burr separation is precise, all should be well. With the conical, X, Y is also critical for the evenness of the grind due to the '3 dimensional' way the burrs are aligned. If some of these plastic mounted burrs are even slightly mis-aligned in manufacture, it could quickly degrade performance.
TagTeamJesus Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2007 Posts: 190 Location: San Francisco, CA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Silvia with Watlow PID Grinder: Macap MC4; QuickMill... Drip: French press, oui, oui!
Posted Wed May 21, 2008, 11:41pm Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
Thanks for that account, Frost. That sheds a lot of light on this issue. And provides me with peace of mind to know that the Le'lit is a good recommendation. It should be the same, then, for the Ascaso I-2 and i-Mini unless there is something different about those grinders. But it is my understanding that these grinders are pretty much all identical inside. Like you said, the Le'lit clumps less, but that is a "feature" beyond the actual grinding of the bean.
If it were me today, I'd still pick one of these grinders over the Rocky based on the stepless adjustment and the price difference. Stepless grinders are just such great tools for honing in on a bean.
Still welcoming feedback from other users of Ascaso, Nemox Lux, and Le'lit grinders.
Keepitsimple Senior Member Joined: 12 Sep 2006 Posts: 173 Location: UK Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Reneka Techno Grinder: Mazzer Mini-e
Posted Thu May 22, 2008, 1:56am Subject: Re: Flat burr vs Conical burr?
TagTeamJesus Said:
cooncatbob, congrats on your Rocky. I'm sure it will serve you well.
Keepitsimple, Interesting account of the I-2. This is actually a very important issue for me because I read so many accounts of this burr set being quite good for espresso...the i-Mini, I-2, Nemox Lux, and Le'lit PL53 all have this same set of burrs and I recommend them often as good grinders at a lower price point. But you have found that it was "utterly useless", so I have to take a step back and find out what you mean. I own the QuickMill stepless grinder, which I've never been particularly fond of due to odd metallic sounds down at finer settings and due to a lesser grind consistency when compared with my Macap. However, as much as I complain about the QuickMill, it can definitely perform for espresso and do it well. Maybe not a completely uniform grind to the naked eye and I sometimes see the hopper shake a tad when grinding, but evidently it's more than adequate because the results in the cup are outstanding. So I am wondering if your account of the I-2 is similar: Despite a less than perfect grind consistency, was the I-2 able to hone in on a bean and produce good shots in the cup? How much time did you spend with this grinder? Your Mazzer and my Macap are bada$$, but from what I have read, these other grinders perform well.
Any other i-Mini, I-2, Nemox Lux, or Le'lit PL53 owners out there have anything to say about the quality of these grinders for espresso?
I was commenting specifically on my experience of the I-2, not other grinders using the same burrset, so please don't read that into it. Just because they share a common engineering feature does not make them necessarily the same in terms of performance.
I have also owned an Aerolatte grinder (identical I think to the Nemox grinder, but re-badged) which was fine, although noisy and messy. That uses the same burrset. It was also only half the price of the Innova.
Utterly useless is just that - the I-2 would not grind evenly or consistently - with the same dose/tamp etc. one grind ran fast, the next slow etc.. Now, my technique isn't that good, but with a Mazzer, I don't have that problem, so I don't think that was the cause.
The aerolatte did not have the worm gear adjustment, and I think it was that contributing to the I-2 problem. When you turn a worm gear, it creates a sideways pressure in the gear to which it connects - especially as the Innova gear wheels were pretty rough. Because the burrset holder was not tight enough in its threads, it makes them move in the threads a little. You don't need much of that to throw the grind consistency right off. As I said, with the use of teflon tape, it may have been sorted out, but as a new grinder, advertised as grinding to a professional standard, I wasn't going to mess around, and it went back.
I had the I-2 for a week. Under the consumer legislation in the UK, if a product is not "fit for purpose", you can reject it within a reasonable time. If you let a supplier try to repair it though, you've accepted it, and are stuck with it whatever the outcome. Hence the reason for returning it.
I can only comment on my personal experience. Mine may have been a lemon, but the comments are, I assure you, fair within the context in which I have made them.
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