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The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

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mhoy
Senior Member

Joined: 4 Feb 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Roaster: HotTop KN-8828D

Posted Thu Mar 26, 2009, 7:19pm
Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

pumpkinscastle Said:

Again, this thread has turned into a p???ing contest between the Vario lovers and the Vario haters. I really think that the Vario should receive its reputation if it is really that good. And it will! Doubtless! But just claiming that tried and true professional grinders like the Super Jolly are at best GOOD and the new Vario is NOTICEABLY better, I think cannot be true. If it is, as you said, noticeably better than your Super Jolly, then it must be indeed on a par with the Mazzer Robur and Kony. I find it hard to believe that this is the case. Very hard indeed.... but then... what do I know?

Posted March 26, 2009 link

And here I thought this thread was for Vario Owners to post their impressions....

Perhaps the Mahlkönig ceramic burrs just rock..
=-=-
Mark

michaelbenis
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Mar 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Brighton
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Mar 27, 2009, 1:32am
Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

mhoy Said:

Perhaps the Mahlkönig ceramic burrs just rock..

Posted March 26, 2009 link

Quite possibly that and : lower temps from the combination of fast throughput, slower burr rpm, low ceramic material heat conduction and belt drive isolation from motor. But then there's also the adjustment system and the timer. And the low grind retention.....

Overall, it's clear a lot of thought has gone into this design in both the States and Germany.

And considering the plastic casing, it's till quite heavy, so the internals must be quite solid.

In addition, the wear characteristics of the ceramic burrs could mean it gives a more consistent performance over the years assuming the nylon (or whatever it is) top burr carrier holds up well.

If someone wants a main grinder for a busy bar, they will obviously still go for one of the tanks, and that could be the "safer" choice even for the home barista today until the Vario has proven itself, but if we continue to get more positive tasting reports, especially with respect to more challenging beans, then many are going to be likely to take the risk, just for the sake of a little domestic harmony.

After all "downsizing" to a Vario would like the ultimate self-sacrifice and earn significant martyr points while quite possibly being a very nice indulgence :-)

Cheers

Mike

orphanespresso
Senior Member

Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 240
Location: Troy
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Cremina Faemina Microcimbali...
Grinder: Hand Grinders

Posted Fri Mar 27, 2009, 2:12am Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

Very well put Mike. It is too bad that the concept of comparisons came into the discussion....I don't think anyone is in doubt of the rock solid value of the Titans...after all they are COMMERCIAL machines, and by definition the good stuff. We like the Vario and want to say it without stepping on anyone's toes, but yes, time will tell.

michaelbenis
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Mar 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Brighton
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Mar 27, 2009, 3:46am Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

Actually I think the comparisons are inevitable and very helpful for the many of us buying "blind". Videos such as your own are really helpful but when trying to come to a solid decision one can only ask about taste and even texture. Which is why comparisons like yours are invaluable. The same goes for some of the detailed comparisons we get in the in-depth reviews here. They are so useful precisely because they help one identify the poster's cup and other preferences, compare them with one's own and get an idea about whether their equipment preferences are likely to square with our own or not. For example, knowing you use a lever and found sufficient leeway and precision to dial in the right grind was very helpful for me as a lever nut in evaluating how I'd find this grinder. There's no need for people to get worked up about comparisons and other people's preferences, though... and if they do it probably has more to do with them than anything else.... Cheers Mike

pumpkinscastle
Senior Member

Joined: 10 Jan 2008
Posts: 247
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Quickmilll Vetrano
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly

Posted Fri Mar 27, 2009, 11:39am
Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

orphanespresso Said:

It is too bad that the concept of comparisons came into the discussion....I don't think anyone is in doubt of the rock solid value of the Titans...after all they are COMMERCIAL machines, and by definition the good stuff. We like the Vario and want to say it without stepping on anyone's toes, but yes, time will tell.

Posted March 27, 2009 link

Orphanespresso, I apologize sincerely if I in any form attacked you in my previous post. That was not my intention. And I respect your opinion, even though I was a bit critical about certain things that you mentioned. I hope to test a Vario sometime soon and form an opinion myself.

I acknowledge to the other posters that those with hands-on experience can probably say the most about a new product. But I also think we should be able to discuss things on here even though many people (like myself) don't speak from experience with this particular grinder. Right now, I just wouldn't feel confident enough to buy a Vario just to test it. Maybe the coffee lovers who own one and sing its praises will convince me eventually.

michaelbenis
Senior Member

Joined: 21 Mar 2009
Posts: 41
Location: Brighton
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Mar 27, 2009, 12:41pm
Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

pumpkinscastle Said:

Right now, I just wouldn't feel confident enough to buy a Vario just to test it.

Posted March 27, 2009 link

I know just how you feel. There's also the matter of whether it will deliver with more complex beans like some of the demanding Ethiopians.... or how the performance will hold up after months and years of abuse.

So I bought a Super Jolly today.

And some Yirgacheffe which will be arriving in a few days.....

Can't wait.

These grinders are like horses for courses..... like most things.

Cheers

Mike

orphanespresso
Senior Member

Joined: 19 Feb 2008
Posts: 240
Location: Troy
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Cremina Faemina Microcimbali...
Grinder: Hand Grinders

Posted Fri Mar 27, 2009, 7:34pm Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

I think it is like comparing apples and oranges in a way. Take what happened today....we went to our local Univeristy surplus sale and they had a Mazzer Luigi sitting of a pallet along with a Rio machine....all used abused etc, as these units generally are when they get to surplus (a wonderland of stuff by the way). so we went back and forth with the surplus price guy about the Mazzer, since the espresso machine with a big box of new parts will be in the next auction in about a month but the grinder was for sale, sortof. The point is that we did not have to go find an electric plug to see if it works since we KNOW it works, they always work. We know it is filthy and we know it will need new burrs and a new hopper but we also know it will work and be a good grinder when we are done, and it is a good grinder even in its present state. If we found a small footprint plastic body grinder at Goodwill we would assume just the opposite, that it would NOT work. A machine with a build quality to last forever actually does last forever, and with full parts availabiltiy you will own it long enough to get bored with it and start contemplating the newest big thing, this is natural! We are getting great shots with the Vario, but we were more than excited to hear the $145 price asked for the Mazzer! And we still have not plugged it in since we KNOW it works. Big difference there.

KyleAnderson
Senior Member

Joined: 15 Mar 2009
Posts: 28
Location: Bellevue
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Dalla Corte Mini
Grinder: Baratza Vario

Posted Sat Mar 28, 2009, 2:34pm
Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

MarkPrince Said:

Again, I'm very hesitant about writing this stuff because I don't want to cannibalize sales, but I did ask Kyle if it was okay.

Some minor evolutionary changes are coming to the grinder, and they should be available on N. American shelves in a very short while. I have one of them here, it literally arrived in the post yesterday, about 3 weeks before general availability. Some of these changes are new to me since the other two models I have are preproduction versions. I'll try to indicate what's on version 1.0 of the grinder, and what I think is new on 1.05

Posted March 25, 2009 link

As the designer and manufacturer of the Vario I feel I owe the readers of this forum a bit of an explanation about the observations and "versions" of the Vario that Mark has posted here. I will follow Mark's lead with the proposed numbering scheme. Until v 1.05 which Mark just received, he had only seen V 1.0 from a pilot pre-production build we did at the end of November 2008. The first Vario's to ship to customers was what I'll call v 1.04, this is the ONLY version that is out in the general public. v 1.05 will be in our warehouse April 22, 2009. I will keep the comparisons in this post limited to 1.04 vs. 1.05

MarkPrince Said:

- easier adjustability of the "set" burr height (easier than removing that rubber grommet and finding the adjustment hex) New for 1.05.

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

On 1.05 we have added an secondary calibration adjustment screw that CAN supplement the primary calibration system, but in a very limited way. Our hope is, few people will ever have need to use this feature, I will explain. In 1.04 we chose to follow the recommendations of the MahlKoenig engineers for the procedure to set the "zero" point for the burr calibration. As 1.04 landed in the hands of end users, we heard from at least 7 people that their grinder was too fine and would not do a coarse enough press pot grind. In every case we talked them thru re-calibrating their Vario via the primary calibration adjustment hidden above the "rubber grommet" and the results were very fine espresso grind AND a good press pot grind. As a result of this feedback we quickly modified our calibration procedure in the factory to a significantly coarser setting (resulting in a new "zero" position only when both levers all all the way up). Additionally, we added a new (secondary) calibration adjustment screw (2mm Allen head). This new screw comes from the factory installed but not engaged with the adjustment arm. IF desired, an end user can turn the screw clockwise (looking up at it) and (ONLY) make the calibration finer than the factory setting. This screw can NOT make the setting coarser than the factory setting, the primary calibration screw must be used for this (and we hope the need for this has passed with the new factory procedure for 1.05). This is intended only as a fine tuning screw that allows for easier adjustment toward the fine direction with the grinder running. In 1.04, this screw would have been of little use since the only feedback we heard was the grinders were too fine already. This screw is located between the discharge spout opening and the rubber grommet.

MarkPrince Said:

- improvements to the anti-static system. Believe most, if not all of these made 1.0

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

No change here from 1.04 to 1.05.

MarkPrince Said:

- minor tweaks to the portaholder. On 1.0 of this grinder.

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

no change here from 1.04 to 1.05

MarkPrince Said:

- better indents for the grind selection arms you move up and down. New for 1.05

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

minor change from 1.04 to 1.05 on the Macro (right arm) detente force. (there was a major change from 1.0 to 1.04 but Mark never saw 1.04). We further increased the tension on the detente for a more positive "click" when moving the Macro arm.

MarkPrince Said:

- ball bearing indent for the bin and pf holder for a more secure fit. Believe it's on 1.0

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

no change from 1.04 to 1.05 (this is a feature that grounds the Porta Holder (and your porta filter) to the ground lug on your plug)

MarkPrince Said:

- tighter control over factory preset for the grinder. New for 1.05

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

As I wrote above, we have a new procedure at the factory for setting the "zero" point that should eliminate end users from the need to re-calibrate the Vario to achieve the designed range of grind (from GS3-choking espresso to french press).

MarkPrince Said:

If you want this grinder already, don't wait for this new model - all the improvements above aren't enough to negate purchasing today; the potentially best one, easier adjustment of the burr height, is still easy to do with existing models via the rubber grommet method

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

Mark is right. 1.05 does not have any different grinding capability or range of grind over 1.04. IF you have need to go finer than the factory setting, this new feature will make it a little easier than using the primary calibration screw.

MarkPrince Said:

If you already own this grinder, understand that Baratza is committed to continual improvements on this grinder and it will see .1 and .11 improvements from time to time for months, if not years. If i had to assign this latest model a version number, it would probably be version 1.05. It was a great grinder at launch, and will continue to improve.

Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

Much as i hate to say it...Mark is right..again. With many products you'll find the words "we reserve the right to make future improvements to this product". At Baratza, we live this. We will probably never hit perfection in any of our products, but we will keep aiming for it. This means we WILL make running improvements (quickly) when we hear of places we fall short. In no way do we want to render our earlier versions obsolete. Whenever feasible, we strive to make improvements that are reverse compatible (this is not always practical, but often it is) so they can be fitted to our installed base of earlier versions. We would be remiss if we didn't always work to make our products better.

MarkPrince Said:

Used the grinder for the first time last night. Appears to be slightly faster than my existing preproduction model - but it's too early to really say this. All I know is, in the preproduction model, I was getting 18g of 25sec/45-50ml Epic espresso pulls in about 13.8 seconds of grinding; same parameter on the older grinder was (and remains) 14.4 seconds.
Mark

Posted March 25, 2009 link

Both of Mark's Vario's (1.0 and 1.05) have a variable electronic speed control. It is possible that the 4% difference in production rate that Mark sees is due to a very slight difference in the speed setting on the PCB (a small potentiometer) on his earlier model. Without looking at it I can only guess here.
I appreciate the opportunity to participate in this forum. Thank you all for your (sometimes "spirited") remarks and all the effort and time spent in your participation.
Regards, Kyle (co-owner and president of Baratza)

mhoy
Senior Member

Joined: 4 Feb 2008
Posts: 182
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Roaster: HotTop KN-8828D

Posted Sat Mar 28, 2009, 3:25pm Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

Great first post Kyle. Thanks for a wonderful grinder. Mark

MarkPrince
Moderator

Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 5,415
Location: Vancouver, BC
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: KvdW Speedster
Grinder: Compak K10 WBC
Vac Pot: A bit too many
Drip: Clive Coffee Drip Stand
Roaster: Hario Glass Retro Roaster

Posted Sat Mar 28, 2009, 3:48pm Subject: Re: The Baratza Vario Grinder Owner's Thread

Really happy to see Kyle coming in to participate. He also told me he's happy to answer questions about the grinder, if you have them, so post here if you do. Mark

CoffeeGeek Senior Editor www.twitter.com/coffeegeek www.flickr.com/coffeegeek, www.about.me/coffeegeek

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