tealboy1 Senior Member Joined: 1 Jul 2008 Posts: 67 Location: Florida Expertise: Just starting
Posted Wed Nov 4, 2009, 4:49pm Subject: Baratza, I talked to them today
I contacted Baratza to ask about problems with the Vario and to see if they had any refurbs coming out since I was looking for a machine that would produce both espresso and press grinds. He said they haven't rec'd a Vario back for refurb as the digital board problems have been replaced by shipping a new board, no need for the entire grinder to come back. Sounds like more problems than they would like but not too bad. Permanent fixes due in December.
However, during the conversation, he told me that the Virtuosa (sp?) should be perfectly fine for my needs of producing espresso and press coffee. I then asked why they came out with the Vario and he said there is an increasing trend toward having more control/variability of the grinds as more and more folks are coffee hobbists as well as enjoy tweaking their brews. For the average person looking to produce a good cup of espresso, the Virtuosa is plenty capable of grinding small and consistent grinds. This is especially true for me b/c I have the pressure disk which enables the grind to be larger. He said even if i move up to a higher end espresso maker, the virtuosa is still capable of producing fine enough grinds to work without the pressure disk. Joe also said older models (more than 2 yrs old) were not as suitable for espresso, so some of the comments in various forums are likely based on experience with the older models as today's version works fine for espresso.
Basically, he said for my unit, a grind setting of appx 15 would be about right and for a higher end non pressure unit, a 5 setting. He said one of their customers uses the Virtuosa exclusively for their espresso coffee (Turkish Coffee or something like that).
Anyway, while this unit may not be perfect for many of you who are diehards or enthusiasts, I don't see why this unit wouldn't be a terrific choice for someone like me, particularly since i can get a refurb at $145. While I like making good coffee, I am far from a hobbyist.
Dooglas Senior Member Joined: 12 Mar 2005 Posts: 551 Location: Portland, OR Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Expobar, La Pavoni Grinder: Ascaso, Solis Drip: Cuisinart CBC, Bodum press Roaster: GeneCafe, Caffe Rosto
Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 9:37am Subject: Re: Baratza, I talked to them today
tealboy1 Said:
Anyway, while this unit may not be perfect for many of you who are diehards or enthusiasts, I don't see why this unit wouldn't be a terrific choice for someone like me, particularly since i can get a refurb at $145. While I like making good coffee, I am far from a hobbyist.
While the Virtuoso is a great choice for drip and press, there are many discussions on this board that point out the lack of adjustment that makes it unsatisfactory for espresso use. Listen a bit more closely to what the Baratza tech really told you. Baratza designed the Vario to provide control/variability that was not achievable with the Virtuoso. You need enough control of the grind to closely control shot timing and extraction to make decent espresso - and that is hardly a recent development.
Why read this forum if you are going to ignore the advice that others give you based on their actual experience (rather than simply wishful thinking that a cheaper machine could do the job)?
The Virtuoso will be fine if your machine has a pressurized portafilter, but with a commercial-style (non pressurized) portafilter the Virtuoso is not capable of making even passable espresso. It is a great grinder for drip and press though.
tealboy1 Senior Member Joined: 1 Jul 2008 Posts: 67 Location: Florida Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 4:14am Subject: Re: Baratza, I talked to them today
Fair comment, I guess it was wishful thinking on my part when the tech said forum members are prob thinking about an earlier generation virtuosa when they say it doesn't work for espresso. Plus, since he works there, I figured he knew more about the machine so I was excited to think it would work given the much lower price. I have been surprised to find out how expensive some of the grinders can be. When I see that, the Vario looks inexpensive.
I keep hoping something will jump out as being a do it all for less than the 400 dollar Vario but everything keeps taking me back to that unit.
I do appreciate everyone's input even if it appears I'm not listening.
If you don't mind the extra noise and a somewhat slower grind you can use a stepless adjusted conical grinder. These provide great grind quality for the price and work well for making espresso. Check out Vanelli's Mini-Pro III or the LeLet PL53
JmanEspresso Senior Member Joined: 18 Jan 2009 Posts: 1,692 Location: Fishkill, NY Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale Vivaldi II Grinder: Macap MXK - Vario Vac Pot: Yama-SY5/SY8/TCA5 Drip: Clever Driper, Bunch O... Roaster: Hottop B
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 11:23am Subject: Re: Baratza, I talked to them today
Those two grinders, as well as the Ascaso I-1 or I-1/D would be my choices for grinders costing less then the Vario.
Keep in mind that, while the Ascaso/Lelit/Vanellis will ALL do the job for espresso, they also ALL will be more a pain to adjust for presspot grinding. The adjustment on them is all similar, IE:by way of a knob on the side/front. You'll be doing lots and lots of turning to make any noticeable difference in grind size.
So, its either a Vario, OR, one of the above three choices, and a baratza Maestro Refurb(~$63) for other brewing needs.
itsallgood Senior Member Joined: 28 Feb 2008 Posts: 21 Location: Arkansas Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: LeLit PLO41 Grinder: Vaneli Mini Pro II,Virtouso Drip: Technivorm KBT-741
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 12:26pm Subject: Re: Baratza, I talked to them today
As a side note:
I talked to the sales rep at Vaneli (Dave) and he steered me towards another grinder that is less expensive, that being the mini pro II Click Here (www.vanelis.com) which according to him is the same motor and burrs etc as the Mini pro III without the grinds catcher and the step-less adjustment. It has a stepped type adjustment and he said it grinds great for espresso or can be adjusted fairly easily for drip and press pot.
After having one in his bag for over a year of use it is working great and gets abused being taken to demos for some very expensive espresso machines. He said that it would take a lot of cranking on the III adjusting knob as others mentioned to get drip or press.
Have a look at it and this might be a happy alternative for you tealboy. According to Dave it will do all you ask and still grind great for espresso and it's only $195.00.
That is also how much the Virtuoso is and you know what's been said here regarding that grinder.
SylvainMtl Senior Member Joined: 5 Apr 2006 Posts: 96 Location: Montreal Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Elektra Sixties A3, Pavoni... Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly, Baratza...
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 7:08pm Subject: Re: Baratza, I talked to them today
Funny that I just retired my Mazzer Super Jolly to the garage today after about two months of having the SJ and the Vario competing for counter space. The Vario produces a good clumpless grind. And I really appreciate the timer feature, as long as the hopper is at least a 1/3 full I find it very consistent.
sjb Senior Member Joined: 22 Apr 2008 Posts: 32 Location: maine Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: sylvia Grinder: solis maestro plus Roaster: gene cafe
Posted Thu Nov 19, 2009, 4:23am Subject: Re: Baratza, I talked to them today
i've been using a refurbished virtuoso not exclusively but largely for espresso (Silvia) for about 4 months and am very happy with the results, consistent shots that please me and my wife day after day. my machine was tuned for turkish and my setting sits at about the 12 mark, 15 grams per shot. i certainly prefer my espresso to almost all the commercial drinks i try from time to time on the street. i am curious about the superior results described by owners of varios and rocky's etc, but don't have any first hand experience. sometime i think it would be interesting to 'borrow' a few ounces of ground coffee from a vario owner and try it out. so anyway, my experience with a refurbed virtuoso is thumbs up.
Posted Fri Nov 20, 2009, 8:05am Subject: Re: Baratza, I talked to them today
I use a Virtuoso for drip/press pot coffee and I have a K30 dedicated to espresso. While the virtuoso is great for other functions, it will not provide a great espresso grind. I speak from experience too, since I've tried using the virtuoso for espresso. It was more of an experiment, than actually trying to dedicate that grinder to espress. My K30 will make coffee powder, if I re-seat the burrs down far enough.
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