robhu Senior Member Joined: 4 Nov 2011 Posts: 3 Location: United Kingdom Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 3:01am Subject: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
I'm entirely new to this... in fact I'm not really in to coffee at all, but my wife is! Last year I bought her a Dolce Gusto pod machine, which she liked, but she said she would have preferred that I'd got her a proper coffee machine. So, as we're coming up to Christmas, I thought I should see what I can do about that!
From what I've read and from what a coffee geek friend has told me, in terms of hardware the key thing to sort out first is the grinder. I'm thinking of getting the Gaggia Classic for the machine as it's well respected and well priced on Amazon UK (£200). So, which grinder to get?
I looked at the Baratza grinders, read lots of reviews, videos, forum posts, etc. A good summary is in The prices in the UK are like this:
£102 Baratza Maestro £137 Baratza Maestro Plus £174 Baratza Virtuoso £245 Rancillo Rocky £315 Baratza Virtuoso Preciso £320 Mahlkonig Vario
The reviews basically say you should forget about the Maestro for espresso. The Virtuoso can do espresso, but really you should get the Preciso. That is rather annoying as the price jump from Virtuoso to Preciso is enormous. On Amazon.com the Virtuoso is £124 ($199) and the Preciso is £186 ($299). In the UK the Preciso is *twice* the cost of the Virtuoso, but in the US it's 50% more :-/
I'm loathe to spend £174 on something that isn't up to scratch, and I can't spend £315. So I am a bit of an impasse. So I began to look for alternatives. I looked at all sorts of alternatives that turned out not to actually be even worth considering, but then I came across Ibertal MC2. It looks a bit dodgy, but the reviews on this site are quite good http://coffeegeek.com/reviews/grinders/iberital_grinder
The Ibertal MC2 uses the same burrs as the Ascaso iMini i2, and reviews say that they perform very similarly, but with perhaps the Ascaso one being a bit more sensibly sized and looking a bit better. I then found that the Ascaso iMini i2 has been recently relaunched in the UK as a rebadged version called the Fracino Piccino. The advantage here is that it's the same thing but it's a bit cheaper.
The options for the cheaper solutions then look like: £135 Fracino Piccino (ABS plastic) inc delivery £137 Ibertal MC2 £146 Ascaso - Imini I2 230 Abs Black Plastic Grinder
So I'm currently thinking the Ascaso / Fracino look like pretty good options. The biggest downside seems to be that changing from one setting to another is quite onerous because it uses this worm screw system, but I imagine that my wife wouldn't want to make large changes (she thinks she'd have 1-2 espressos per day) so perhaps that doesn't matter.
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 6:12am Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
Welcome to CoffeeGeek.
The last three you mention will grind fine enough for espresso and are essentially the same grinder (conical burrs, worm drive and motor assembly) so the exterior is the difference maker - for build quality the Metal body Ibertal MC2 might have an edge on the plastic Ascaso, but not by much. These are very - very very - loud grinders. I would make sure the wife is going to be OK with it.
Youtube is your friend since you can hear these grinders run. I have a grinder like these and I can live with the noise but my wife couldn't. Baratza Preciso and Vario are levels quieter and my Preciso offers exceptional grind quality with near zero clumping. Your cheaper options will clump but this can be eliminated.
Money up front or compromises with cheaper equipment is the story of coffee gear - what your wife is willing to put up with is a huge factor since you don't want to buy twice.
robhu Senior Member Joined: 4 Nov 2011 Posts: 3 Location: United Kingdom Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 11:32am Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
Thank you. I've actually already read the reviews on the site for the blenders, and watched (many!) YouTube videos for them.
My wife is happy with the blender being noisy, especially as she probably only drinks 1-2 coffees a day, so it's only for a very short period.
Would you agree with my assessment that for espresso the Ibertal/Ascaso blenders fit in something like this (worst to best): Baratza Maestro Baratza Maestro Plus Baratza Virtuoso Ibertal / Ascaso Baratza Virtuoso Preciso or Mahlkonig Vario
(not sure where the Rancillo Rocky would be)
If that is right, then if the quality of the blend for espresso is good/very good for the Ibertal blenders, then it probably isn't worth spending £315 rather than £135 to go up to the next step up of a Preciso / Vario.
Of course if we had £100,000 spare we'd just get the best thing immediately, but for us spending 2.5 times as much on the blender would only be justified if there was both a really big improvement, and if the quality of the blend of the cheaper thing were average or below average (I'm assuming it'd be better described as 'good' by most people).
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 12:20pm Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
So $235 for the Ascaso and $500 for the Preciso in the UK? - wow, that is a huge difference. If she doesn't mind the noise and can work around some clumping then the budget play is hard to ignore.
Here in the US the Ascaso I-2 conical and it's worm drive cousins (Nemox Lux, Le'Lit PL53) all sell for around $300 give or take 10%. The Baratza Virtuoso Preciso is priced in this same range so the choice is easier here for us in the US that it is for European customers.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
robhu Senior Member Joined: 4 Nov 2011 Posts: 3 Location: United Kingdom Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 12:55pm Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
Yeah, if you convert the £ price to $ it looks like the table below. I've also added columns for the price of the grinder in the US (based on a Google products search), and the amount extra you'd have to pay if you bought it here:
The Preciso costs 70% more in the UK than it does in the US :-/ The Ascaso is virtually the same price. The Nemox "Lux plus" seems to be $199 in the US.
In the UK we're quite used to paying a premium relative to the US, but it's particularly galling here. I guess the Ascaso is aimed more at the budget end of the market, and with the coffee scene being smaller here they price it similarly to the US. I imagine (but don't know) that Baratza know that they're recommended and in demand in the UK, don't have a whole lot of competition (there are far fewer alternative grinders to choose from), and so know they can get away with a big premium.
It'd actually be cheaper for me to order the Preciso from the US, have it shipped over, and pay import duties, than it would be to just buy it here. I don't want to have to deal with the hassle of losing the warranty and doing the voltage conversion (although I have the equipment) though.
Am I right in my order of grinding quality for espresso (in the earlier post) ?
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 3:45pm Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
Bear in mind the price you see in the UK will include 20% VAT, so nearly 17% of the UK price is tax. The US prices probably don't include sales tax (I stand to be corrected).
Haven't imported anything from outside the EU for a while but apart from the voltage and warranty you may also have to pay VAT as well as any import duty, and that makes it less attractive ;o( The preciso would still be a lot cheaper though.
That UK price is outrageous bearing in mind you can get a proper commercial quality grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly for only about 20% more.
The demand in Europe for Baratza grinders is probably quite low, and that combined with few suppliers keeps the price high.
Let me make it quite clear that I have no commercial relationship whatsoever with the company that commissioned the following grinder review in the UK, but I would make 2 relevant comments.
1) the review is written by a member of this forum, and reviews written by him are seen to be very independent, and pull no punches despite being commissioned by the company supplying the products.
2) His comments about the Ascaso/Innova I2 are spot on in my experience. Mine went back to the supplier as it was unusable for espresso.
It is well worth a read as it will give you perhaps a sightly different perspective and more options.
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 4:14pm Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
__________ Said:
...Let me make it quite clear that I have no commercial relationship whatsoever with the company that commissioned the following grinder review in the UK, but I would make 2 relevant comments.
1) the review is written by a member of this forum, and reviews written by him are seen to be very independent, and pull no punches despite being commissioned by the company supplying the products.
2) His comments about the Ascaso/Innova I2 are spot on in my experience. Mine went back to the supplier as it was unusable for espresso.
It is well worth a read as it will give you perhaps a sightly different perspective and more options.
I have seen that review as well, and it is food for thought and I certainly do not discount that the Mazzer Mini is a superior grinder to these entry level machines.
As a counter point to the viability of these grinders for espresso we have the comments from Alan Frew:
"Lux, Innova Conical (USA), La Pavoni PB (USA), Iberital, Isomac and many others.
The one weakness of this burr set is that the threaded burr carrier is made from some sort of hard black plastic, however in practice this particular set seems to last as long and work as well as a brass carrier. The oldest model I have in the field is now 6 years old and still performing well, but will require new burrs sometime in the next year or so.
Certainly they can grind fine enough and accurately enough to produce excellent espresso on any machine, and do it consistently over a long period of use."
These grinders are the entry level for espresso grinding - a hand mill like the Hario Mini is the next lowest rung on the ladder. That said, they will grind for espresso but will be clumpy and noisy. Quiet isn't something you taste in the shot, and WDT prep eliminates clumps in the filter basket.
robhu Said:
Am I right in my order of grinding quality for espresso (in the earlier post) ?
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 5:14pm Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
My experience with an I2 is that it was badly made. It was at that time branded "Innova" but is identical to the later Ascaso grinders, although both are cosmetically different I think from the current design, and now omit the clear plastic chute which cracked within 3 days. The plastic burrset holder was very badly finished, as was the worm gear. A combination of the 2 meant that the burrs wobbled around from side to side because of the friction between the worm gear and the burr holder gear teeth, and the grind changed massively and inconsistently as a result. It went back to the supplier as unfit for purpose. Unfortunately in the consumer reviews on this forum the I1 and I2 are conflated into the same review although they are quite different beasts.
I also had, and subsequently sold a Nemox Lux grinder when I got rid of an Isomac Tea in the same deal. This had the same burr set, but lacked a worm gear adjustment. Whether it was a result of that or simply a better manufactured example I don't know, but it worked well and consistently if very noisy. It was also very cheap at that time - 5/6 years ago - I think £79.99, or about $US 130. In retrospect, wish I had kept it for non-espresso, but it did help to get rid of the Isomac which I was glad to do.
I don't think it is safe to conclude that just because a number of grinders share the same innards they are equally good. Alan Frew's article is, as he says "A look at the capabilities of domestic espresso coffee grinders based on the burr sets they use". It isn't clear whether he has reviewed its implementation in all the grinders that use it even though the 2 grinders pictured appear to be Ascaso/Innova grinders. He does note the Innova grinders as being USA models, so also it isn't clear whether they form part of his user base in the field on which his informed opinions are based.
It is actually the Eureka Mignon in the bellabarista review that interested me. I don't recall seeing that discussed on these forums, unless it is under a different name. Maybe not available outside Europe, and at least it widens the scope for those of us outside N.America.
I don't think the Mazzer was really subject to review in the Bellabarista link - just used as a comparator.
You're a brave person when the Vario is flavour of the month on here (or is that already passing in favour of the Preciso ?) for daring to agree that the Mazzer is a better grinder ;o)
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 7:06pm Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
__________ Said:
My experience with an I2 is that it was badly made. It was at that time branded "Innova" but is identical to the later Ascaso grinders, although both are cosmetically different I think from the current design, and now omit the clear plastic chute which cracked within 3 days. The plastic burrset holder was very badly finished, as was the worm gear. A combination of the 2 meant that the burrs wobbled around from side to side because of the friction between the worm gear and the burr holder gear teeth, and the grind changed massively and inconsistently as a result. It went back to the supplier as unfit for purpose. Unfortunately in the consumer reviews on this forum the I1 and I2 are conflated into the same review although they are quite different beasts.
Funny you should mention this - my LaPavoni PBC (same worm drive and plastic cog) had the same play and notchy, less than smooth adjustment. I chalked it up to the grinder being old since I was at least the third owner. It may have been like this all along. I wrapped Teflon pipe tape around the threads of the poly outer burr carrier (plastic cog) and noticed a marked improvement in the grind and smoothness in the adjustment. The tape eliminated any play. I prefer the Baratza Preciso (less noise, almost zero grind retention, and fluffy grounds) but the LaPavoni PBC with it's Tre Spade burr set will still grind very well for espresso.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Posted Sat Nov 5, 2011, 3:28am Subject: Re: Does this make sense for a sub $300 (actually £200) grinder?
It did occur to me to try teflon tape. However, the plastic chute already had a stress crack in it, and for the price I didn't think it was well made or that I should have to mess around to try to make it work properly. Added to that there is a statutory 7 working day "cooling off" time in the UK for items bought online/mail order, and within that you can return anything without needing any reason for a full refund provided it is in "as new" condition. If I'd messed around with it that could have been arguable.
I suspect it is the luck of the draw to some extent how well mated the burr carriers are on these plastic ones. Mass producing them in plastic with tight tolerances can't be easy. I'm sure the I1 is a much better grinder partly because it has a brass (I think) burr carrier.
Symbols: = New Posts since your last visit = No New Posts since last visit = Newest post
Forum Rules: No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards. No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum. No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum. Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards. Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics. Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies. Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies. Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts. Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
= No New Posts since last visit 