Necrosis Senior Member Joined: 30 Sep 2010 Posts: 36 Location: Arizona Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rocket Cellini Evoluzione Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Gene Cafe
Posted Mon Jan 2, 2012, 1:33pm Subject: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
I normally don't weigh my doses once I have my vario dialed in for the coffee I'm using, but I've been experimenting when I came back from vacation and weighing every dose.
Long story short, I'm finding that at the same grind setting, my vario is producing up to 2.2 grams of inconsistency with the same timing. But the thing is, I get the same extraction time regardless. I pulled 3 double shots this morning, on the exact same settings and timing, which resulted in 12.2g, 12.8g, and 14.4g doses respectively. And in that order, my extraction times were 28 seconds, 31 seconds, and 26 seconds. The shots dont seem to taste much different, neither bitter nor sour, though the 14g+ shot is definitely richer and tastes better.
Does anyone else experience this? I'm tempted to grind 7g into a single basket and seeing how long that takes to produce 2oz, but maybe another day.
Posted Mon Jan 2, 2012, 9:35pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
Nope. I have always observed a strong correlation between dose and flow rate. The higher the dose, the slower the flow rate.
I don't know how you are measuring your extraction times. Are you stopping the extraction at a certain target volume? That can be very inaccurate. Let me suggest a slightly different experiment. Weigh doses of 14g, 16g, and 18g. Extract for a specified time (say, 25 seconds), and weigh the resulting liquid. You should see higher extraction weights for lower doses. If not, something has gone wrong with your extractions (perhaps channeling).
Side note: it's not surprising that the 14g dose tasted better. 12g is a very low dose for an E61 double basket.
Necrosis Senior Member Joined: 30 Sep 2010 Posts: 36 Location: Arizona Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rocket Cellini Evoluzione Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Gene Cafe
Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012, 12:20pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
I was measuring by volume, when the top of the crema reaches the 2oz mark, which tends to be about 1.7oz by weight. Haven't thought about cutting the shot based on time and checking the weight.
14g is my target dosage for two reasons. First, I like how it taste and I feel like I'm not using too much coffee to produce one drink. The other is that the rocket double shot basket is technically a 12g baskets (at least, that's how they are advertised), and while they hold my target 14g just fine, going higher than that will usually result in coffee coming into contact with the shower screen as I'm locking in, and it can be felt, and 7 times out of 10, produce some pretty awful channeling for me.
I'll experiment with cutting shots off at fixed times and weighing them sometime with my next roasted batch. I've already noticed things starting to stabilize, which makes me think that maybe the grinder just needs a few pounds of re-breaking in after having cleaned it. One other thing I failed to mention, that I only realized today, is that while the humidity has remained constant, the ambient temperature has not. It's a bit chilly in the morning in the last few days, but warms up in the afternoon/evening. Maybe a forhead slapping moment, but it could make sense that cooler beans grind differently than warmer beans.
Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012, 12:59pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
How did you decide to end the shots? Volume is notoriously unreliable. A five second shot time spread is hardly what I would call dosed weight not affecting pour speed.
cappuccinoboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Jun 2009 Posts: 756 Location: MILANO Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Milano pod, Milano fully... Grinder: grind on demand
Posted Tue Jan 3, 2012, 2:46pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
Necrosis Said:
I normally don't weigh my doses once I have my vario dialed in for the coffee I'm using, but I've been experimenting when I came back from vacation and weighing every dose.
Long story short, I'm finding that at the same grind setting, my vario is producing up to 2.2 grams of inconsistency with the same timing. But the thing is, I get the same extraction time regardless. I pulled 3 double shots this morning, on the exact same settings and timing, which resulted in 12.2g, 12.8g, and 14.4g doses respectively. And in that order, my extraction times were 28 seconds, 31 seconds, and 26 seconds. The shots dont seem to taste much different, neither bitter nor sour, though the 14g+ shot is definitely richer and tastes better.
Does anyone else experience this? I'm tempted to grind 7g into a single basket and seeing how long that takes to produce 2oz, but maybe another day.
dear friend, you are clearly lacking "MANO": Your Vario is dosed by time and that means that quantity ,and quality of grind, although precise do vary according to weather conditions and type of beans, mano should allow you to compensate. Espresso is not such a precise rule, for what you get with 7 grams one day you may need 7.5 grams, or finer grind, another day do not give up, and look for comments to come..... ciao, Pietro
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 1,621 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: N.S. Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: pour over Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012, 2:10pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
I see the point of this question a little different then the responses are answering.
I also have been having some problems though not as grand as you are having. I will get 18g and a second shot pulled moments later will be 18.8g, also if I move the micro lever one notch up which should result in less weight I get more weight and a finer grind?!
I hope to take apart the Vario this weekend to inspect the gears and lately I am thinking something is going wrong with my control board and it's timer. I believe of the 3 extra control boards I have one is functional so I may try swapping them plus I never had updated my control board to the newer one that remembers settings when unplugged so it may be a good time to buy that one. Baratza is very good at taking care of its customers so don't hesitate to get in touch with them.
Necrosis Senior Member Joined: 30 Sep 2010 Posts: 36 Location: Arizona Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rocket Cellini Evoluzione Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Gene Cafe
Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012, 3:25pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
Bob_McBob Said:
How did you decide to end the shots? Volume is notoriously unreliable. A five second shot time spread is hardly what I would call dosed weight not affecting pour speed.
I typically end the shots by volume, when the top of the crema reaches 2oz (or 1oz if splitting the shot). With my grind calibration, this does end up with a blonding pour for the last few seconds (producing the vampire bite on the crema). If I'm just pulling a shot into a cup, say for a latte, I watch for blonding and give it a few extra seconds into it before cutting the shot. Normally, once I'm dialed in, I don't measure any weights or times, unless something doesn't taste right. I roast 1lb of coffee at a time every 4-6 days, usually for 5lbs before switching to another coffee, and it's always SO brazil or ethiopians, so usually, I dont even have to change any calibrations between coffees.
cappuccinoboy Said:
dear friend, you are clearly lacking "MANO": Your Vario is dosed by time and that means that quantity ,and quality of grind, although precise do vary according to weather conditions and type of beans, mano should allow you to compensate. Espresso is not such a precise rule, for what you get with 7 grams one day you may need 7.5 grams, or finer grind, another day do not give up, and look for comments to come..... ciao, Pietro
I can't deny this, but I am quite confident in my consistency at least. Out here in arizona, the weather is pretty consistent: dry and hot. I keep a hydrometer next to my Vario that at least confirms the dry part. Temperature IS a variable right now, since we don't run the AC or heater in the winter at our house, but soon as we start using the AC again (which wont be much longer), the temperature will be mostly constant again.
The problem with compensating for variables, is I'm not pulling consecutive shots. I may drink a double shot when I wake up and it tastes off so I adjust something, but my next shot 1-2 hours later is now doing the opposite. I don't just sink my shots, I cant stand wasting coffee.
I am of the mind set of "good enough, let me be happy". Yes I have all my diagnostic tools, but I don't want to complicate every single shot I pull. I just use the tools to get everything where it needs to be, so that I can grab my portafilter, grind directly into it with timed dosage, tamp (nutating, which has served me best) while flushing my machine, lock and pull. And for the most part, I get this, which brings me happiness. If I have to grind into a seperate container, I'm spending more time doing that and changing my distribution, which can change everything else. Weighing it takes more time, if it's off by any amount, I have a calculator to calculate the time differential to make up the difference, that takes time, timing the dose doesn't cause any problems so I will often do that.
Etc etc, I'm fine with "good enough" once I'm in the correct range of variables. Given I have a rocket, a wonderful grinder and fresh roasted coffee to my specifications, "good enough" still represents very delicious coffee. Just my vario timing has been weird and throwing me off and perplexing me in ways I have not been before.
germantownrob Said:
I see the point of this question a little different then the responses are answering.
I also have been having some problems though not as grand as you are having. I will get 18g and a second shot pulled moments later will be 18.8g, also if I move the micro lever one notch up which should result in less weight I get more weight and a finer grind?!
I hope to take apart the Vario this weekend to inspect the gears and lately I am thinking something is going wrong with my control board and it's timer. I believe of the 3 extra control boards I have one is functional so I may try swapping them plus I never had updated my control board to the newer one that remembers settings when unplugged so it may be a good time to buy that one. Baratza is very good at taking care of its customers so don't hesitate to get in touch with them.
Yes! I've had various issues like that with the Vario. This is my second Vario in the last year and a half, and typically, once it settles in with a grind and time, it will remain near-perfect for months. But sooner or later I change to a different coffee that needs adjustment, and suddenly increasing or decreasing grind settings will do the OPPOSITE of what was supposed to happen.
Two things I've found that help, if making a grind coarser, you can use that adjustment wrench to slide through your beans in the hopper and push the lower bur. If you've ever played with adjustments when you remove the upper bur, you'll notice the lower bur sticks and clicks down when you slide the dials down.
The other thing that helps, is when cleaning, to only use grindz (or instant rice), as every time I've ever pulled out the upper bur and done a hardcore cleaning (including compressed air to remove particles), the grinder would go crazy inconsistent. Changing settings would do absolutely nothing, or behave backwards, suddenly my grinds may become drastically more fluffy, or god knows what.
nixter Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2008 Posts: 162 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Giotto Evoluzione, Oscar Pro Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012, 3:30pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
OP, you say you are weighing the dose... Do you mean your are weighing the grinds immediately after they are ground or are you measuring the shot after it's extracted?
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 1,621 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: N.S. Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: pour over Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Wed Jan 4, 2012, 4:47pm Subject: Re: Does dosed weight not affect pour speed for anyone else?
I am going on 2 years with this Vario, the first one developed many problems and was replaced. This Vario has given me consistency with the timer to weight with in multiple shot sessions until recently, now it is a must to weight after every grind if I want things to be exact.
I do use grinds but it does very little for removing packed coffee grinds from the nooks and crannies, the only effective way to fully clean it that I have found is to take the upper burr out and every once in awhile to remove the lower burr to get a very thorough cleaning.
I have seen some say that eventually the lower burr stops sticking but this is not the case for me after two years. This does not effect me much since the Vario is a dedicated espresso grinder and the micro adjustment does its job of going coarser or finer. While I am not ruling out a mechanical malfunction my gut is telling me my problem is an electrical problem with the timer.
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