Stuart Senior Member Joined: 9 Feb 2012 Posts: 113 Location: TX Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Air Crazy popper
Posted Wed Feb 29, 2012, 10:41pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
I spent Monday in a training session (at Cuvee Coffee in Spicewood, TX; with Lorenzo Perkins teaching -- recommended!) and we were using a Mahlkonig K30 Vario grinder. Is any consumer-grade grinder going to match the experience of using that beast?
Also, is there a good stepless grinder at the price point of the Preciso? Of the Vario? Other than the LeLit PL53?
For speed and quiet, there is no match among consumer-grade grinders (AFAIK)
For grind quality and taste in the cup, absolutely. The Baratza Vario and Vario-W come to mind because in our taste testing we were unable to distinguish (consistently) any difference in the cup between the K30 Vario, Baratza Vario, and mazzer Super Jolly.
Stuart Said:
Also, is there a good stepless grinder at the price point of the Preciso? Of the Vario? Other than the LeLit PL53?
All of the trespade conical grinders with worm drive adjustment (like PL53) will be in the same price neighborhood and produce similar results. The Vanelis Mini-Pro III has generally been a value leader for this type of grinder, but most are in a similar price range.
All of the Trespade grinders are LOUD and slow, if that is any consideration. really, loud.
I have not used a Baratza Preciso myself, but I've been very impressed with the Vario and Vario-W. The multi-stage adjustment system with separate coarse and fine adjustments is not "stepped" in the traditional sense (like a Rocky, or Fiorenzato T-80). The micro adjustment steps are so fine that you would be hard pressed to make as precise and accurate adjustment with many stepless grinders. Even the worm drive systems have some backlash when changing adjustment direction.
In nay case, no matter what grinder you pick, it is a good idea to let fine adjustments "settle" for a few shots before touching the adjustment again. This only applies when you're close to being dialed in...so if a coarse adjutment is required then go for it.
"An accuracy of 100% means that the measured values are exactly the same as the given values." - Wikipedia, LOL
So, sir, how would you quantify the "accuracy" of a grinder set to step 37 out of 440 and by the given value assess whether the grinder is grinding at an "accurate" value of 37/440?
Since there is no accepted target particle size for a specific setting on any grinder, the "accuracy" of that grinder can not be quantified.
Stuart Senior Member Joined: 9 Feb 2012 Posts: 113 Location: TX Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Breville Dual Boiler Grinder: Baratza Vario Roaster: Air Crazy popper
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 12:04pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
Thanks, Jon. The experience in the cup is what I should be worried about, and the absence of "consumer-grade" machines that will grind 18g in <4seconds while making no more noise than my laser printer isn't surprising. It was so pleasant to use that machine that I did spend a bit of time trying to understand what the cost of a used Mahlkonig K30 would be (too much).
Re: precision, accuracy, and repeatability: I worry a bit about repeatability. With a stepless grinder, one is making reference to an analog scale scribed onto the machine. The Mahlkonig that so impressed me had major markings (numbered) about 1cm apart. Between each division is a single intermediate marking:
When instructed to set the device at "2 3/4," I knew where I was being told to set it. I might even have taken a whack at "2.8" (a bit above the midpoint between 2 1/2 and 3) or "2.9" (not quite to 3). But "a bit above" and "not quite" are the kinds of terms I that make the science guy in me shiver -- if you set it to "not quite 3" one day, will that "not quite 3" be the same some other day?
Or is this a bit misplaced, given the way beans change as they age, the way grinding dynamics change with the weather and burr wear? Is that why those who pursue "Amazing Coffee" don't worry too much about being able to set the machine to exactly where they set it the last time they ground Espresso Blend #3 -- because the ideal setting will probably be different today?
As a novice, I think I'd still prefer the comfort of being able to set a grinder at "one down from the finest" on coarse and "three down from finest" on fine. (That is to say, I'm leaning toward a stepped grinder, but one with over 200 individual steps.)
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 12:11pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
Stuart Said:
As a novice, I think I'd still prefer the comfort of being able to set a grinder at "one down from the finest" on coarse and "three down from finest" on fine. (That is to say, I'm leaning toward a stepped grinder, but one with over 200 individual steps.)
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,642 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 1:06pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
if a click stops are in your comfort zone, then that is the way you should go. with that said though it really doesn't make any difference if there is a scale to reference to or not as you're just going to be moving a fraction of an inch more or less fine. you can make smaller adjustments on a grinder without steps and like I said before a scale really is not need.
but like I said before if your comfort blanket requires steps then go with the grinder that has steps , it's that simple.
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
cactus Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2012 Posts: 18 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 3:10pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
wow, some really good responses.
So my main question is, am I wasting money in getting a stepless K3 or MC4 versus a stepped vario (or more likely, the preciso). Granted, the preciso isn't in the league of the former three, but all other things considered, why would I go stepless when I've got at least 220 vario steps or 440 preciso steps. Shouldn't that be more than enough. I won't get caught between settings, like those experiences in the Rocky, so I'm told.
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 382 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 4:54pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
I too have a science mind, but tend to leave that out of espresso making as much as possible. The K3 does have numbers on it somewhere, but I wouldn't have a clue what number I use or whether the higher numbers are finer or coarser. If you are changing beans regularly from shot to shot, I would probably advise against the k3. I have a single blend that I use primarily and buy it a pound at a time (lasting a little less than a week). From time to time, I slip in a new blend (buy a whole pound and use it for that week). I can get it dialed in to a reasonable range within a couple shots, but too much of a pain to switch back and fourth between two blends regularly (ie: daily). I expect the vario would give you a little less hassle switching and get you in the ballpark on the first shot (with finer adjustment for the second), but I havn't tried that.
My vario arrives hopefully tomorrow and I can let you know if this holds true, but I really don't plan on changing the way I buy beans and chew through a pound at a time. I expect the K3 to last longer than the vario and the build quality is excellent (and looks pretty slick). I didn't get the vario because I felt the need for an upgrade; it was a good deal I couldn't pass up; and will work nice for my other brewing methods as well as espresso to see how I like it in comparison.
I sense that you are anti-stepless and that is ok. Stepless is not usually seen as a disadvantage, but if you feel it is not for you, by all means, choose something else. It gives you the finest control over grind, but is more work if you are continually switching blends. Also a definate no-no if used for multi-use brew methods.
calblacksmith Moderator Joined: 25 Nov 2007 Posts: 5,642 Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A. Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: ECM Veneziano A1 Grinder: Many different commercial Vac Pot: 40s era Silex Drip: Milita, Bunn&Curtis... Roaster: Cast iron pan, gas burner
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 4:55pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
There is no correct answer , it is a personal preference and what is best for me may be wrong for you . all we can do is to list the options and difference between them and you must choose for yourself .
In real life, my name is Wayne P.
Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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