cactus Senior Member Joined: 27 Feb 2012 Posts: 18 Location: Vancouver Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 5:06pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
diggi Said:
I too have a science mind, but tend to leave that out of espresso making as much as possible. The K3 does have numbers on it somewhere, but I wouldn't have a clue what number I use or whether the higher numbers are finer or coarser. If you are changing beans regularly from shot to shot, I would probably advise against the k3. I have a single blend that I use primarily and buy it a pound at a time (lasting a little less than a week). From time to time, I slip in a new blend (buy a whole pound and use it for that week). I can get it dialed in to a reasonable range within a couple shots, but too much of a pain to switch back and fourth between two blends regularly (ie: daily). I expect the vario would give you a little less hassle switching and get you in the ballpark on the first shot (with finer adjustment for the second), but I havn't tried that.
My vario arrives hopefully tomorrow and I can let you know if this holds true, but I really don't plan on changing the way I buy beans and chew through a pound at a time. I expect the K3 to last longer than the vario and the build quality is excellent (and looks pretty slick). I didn't get the vario because I felt the need for an upgrade; it was a good deal I couldn't pass up; and will work nice for my other brewing methods as well as espresso to see how I like it in comparison.
I sense that you are anti-stepless and that is ok. Stepless is not usually seen as a disadvantage, but if you feel it is not for you, by all means, choose something else. It gives you the finest control over grind, but is more work if you are continually switching blends. Also a definate no-no if used for multi-use brew methods.
anti-stepless?? no, actually I needed some cons against stepless and this was the best I could come up with ;)
In fact I want a stepless but I need a convincing arguement for them. I'm not sure if I am convinced either way, as both have their merits. I do like the fact that the K3 is nice and shiny and will match my eventual e61 hx machine. (hah ha)
All I know is that either the vario (and maybe even the preciso) or the k3 /mc4 should meet my needs and on a blind test, I probably won't know the difference. I still have a department store $40 burr grinder that I can do coarser french press grind, so I most likely won't be changing the settings except for dialing it in.
GDK Senior Member Joined: 17 Feb 2011 Posts: 92 Location: Ontario, Canada Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: MiniVivaldi II, preinfusion,... Grinder: Baratza Vario W
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 6:18pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
Here is a twist on this discussion. Stepped is better if the steps are small enough to allow for the fine tuning you care about.
This reminds me of the old discussion around digital vs. analog sound formats. As sampling frequencies and number of bits (discrete levels) kept rising, digital formats did not only equaled analog but eventually surpassed in in every category ;) Vario is likely of CD quality, Rocky is a low quality MP3.
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 382 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 6:22pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
GDK Said:
Here is a twist on this discussion. Stepped is better if the steps are small enough to allow for the fine tuning you care about.
This reminds me of the old discussion around digital vs. analog sound. As sampling frequencies and bits used kept rising, digital did not only equaled analog but eventually surpassed in in every category ;)
Not sure I follow. Step-less gives finer adjustment, full stop. Likely unnecessary and stepped are likely sufficient if given enough adjustments as already discussed in this thread. Don't see how that makes step-less obsolete. As far as audio goes, I'd take vinyl with a tube amp any day :)
GDK Senior Member Joined: 17 Feb 2011 Posts: 92 Location: Ontario, Canada Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: MiniVivaldi II, preinfusion,... Grinder: Baratza Vario W
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 6:29pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
A very fine stepped grinder gives you the best of both worlds - fine enough adjustment and switching back and fort between settings easily. If a stepped grinder gives you say 1 sec adjustment for espresso pours, why would you choose stepless? Perhaps for the same reason you prefer vinil vs SACDs ;)
sn_85 Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2011 Posts: 131 Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Quick Mill Andreja Premium Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 6:31pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
I don't think there is much else to say, you've been given some really good advice on this thread. Now the rest is up to you on which one fits your needs. If you stay with one type of bean and ONLY one bean then get a stepless. If you like to switch around and go for other beans or types of grinds then get a Vario. I would just get the Vario and call it a day. Either way, all the choices are good enough for espresso.
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 382 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 6:56pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
GDK Said:
A very fine stepped grinder gives you the best of both worlds - fine enough adjustment and switching back and fort between settings easily. If a stepped grinder gives you say 1 sec adjustment for espresso pours, why would you choose stepless? Perhaps for the same reason you prefer vinil vs SACDs ;)
Agreed. And if you read them, you'll see that your question was already answered.
cactus Said:
Granted, the preciso isn't in the league of the former three, but all other things considered, why would I go stepless when I've got at least 220 vario steps or 440 preciso steps. Shouldn't that be more than enough. I won't get caught between settings, like those experiences in the Rocky, so I'm told.
The {Baratza} multi-stage adjustment system with separate coarse and fine adjustments is not "stepped" in the traditional sense (like a Rocky, or Fiorenzato T-80). The micro adjustment steps are so fine that you would be hard pressed to make as precise and accurate adjustment with many stepless grinders. Even the worm drive systems have some backlash when changing adjustment direction.
Agreed. Only one other thing I can think of. The micro-adjust systems can have issues with sliders not 'sticking' properly and sliding to lose setting. A twist collar 'should' be more durable....just a thought. Still uncertain what I would chose if had to do over.
Posted Thu Mar 1, 2012, 7:49pm Subject: Re: stepped grinders vs stepless - is one really more accurate than the other?
diggi Said:
The micro-adjust systems can have issues with sliders not 'sticking' properly and sliding to lose setting. A twist collar 'should' be more durable....just a thought.
This is a very good point, and robust design and durability are very dear to my heart. That's why my main squeeze grinder is a Mazzer (a very big Mazzer)
That said, I do not have those issues with either the vario or vario-W, and the Preciso apparently has a collar system
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