I agree with your skepticism, but I feel like a lot of people want a motor driven version of the Pharos (plus some legs, a PF holder, and a more precise adjustment mechanism). This is basically what a single dosed K10 is but with a more convoluted exit path from the burrs. Now, I would would be on board if an enterprising someone could build Pharos gobbling frame that would provide all of this as an add on. Going down this path leads somewhere similar to the Versalab, but I like the idea of owning a single set of burrs that does double duty.
In general we all seem to want the best commercial burrs possible without the size/cost of huge hoppers, cooling fans, heavy duty motors that can grind 14g in 3 seconds for 30min at at time, and 30lbs cast aluminum bodies (that last one is up for grabs).
Posted Thu Mar 15, 2012, 9:36pm Subject: Re: Higher end grinders - Why So Large?
russel Said:
I agree with your skepticism, but I feel like a lot of people want a motor driven version of the Pharos (plus some legs, a PF holder, and a more precise adjustment mechanism). This is basically what a single dosed K10 is but with a more convoluted exit path from the burrs. Now, I would would be on board if an enterprising someone could build Pharos gobbling frame that would provide all of this as an add on. Going down this path leads somewhere similar to the Versalab, but I like the idea of owning a single set of burrs that does double duty.
In general we all seem to want the best commercial burrs possible without the size/cost of huge hoppers, cooling fans, heavy duty motors that can grind 14g in 3 seconds for 30min at at time, and 30lbs cast aluminum bodies (that last one is up for grabs).
The question is what would R&D cost on such a thing and would it be profitable.
In order for it to logically make sense, how cheap would the grinder have to be? 1500?, Sub $1000? I just don't see it.
This is of course taking into account that R&D is amortized over the life cycle of any product. It's no big deal if you're going to sell 100,000 of them. But if its 1500.... the cost is exponentially increased.
Overheating in a busy cafe setting is the enemy of the commercial grinder, hence the large heavy duty motors that spin at lower speed and drive larger burrs.
Larger burrs + lower speed = Low heat and fast grind times. +- 3 sec per 22g.
Even with all the high end internals, some cafes were still able to outpace the first Robur and cause it to overheat, so Mazzer introduced a new fan cooled model.
It just so happens that the grinders that produce the best taste in the cafe also do so in the home, but they weren't ever designed with the home kitchen in mind.
You are, I think, underestimating the next step up from the Preciso, the Baratza Vario (aka the Mahlkönig VARIO Home, as named within the EU). The most common grinder the Vario is compared to, in terms of grind quality, is the Super Jolly.
But all these -- with the exception of the Pharos -- are designed for commercial use. A few -- and I mean a very few -- individuals are crazy enough to have them in their homes. It's, perhaps, a bit misleading, because most of those crazy people hangout here!
Baratza offers everything needed for the home environment in a size that is small enough. Once you step into the commercial grinders, with exception to the Pro-M, grinders get large. It may seem everybody has these large commercial grinders in their home but in reality most home baristas don't have these big boys, it is a diminishing return for the size, quality of machine, and quality of grind yet it is worth it to many that want the very best.
Baratza may not have the robust build of a commercial grinder but they take care of their customers very, very well. I had a Vario 2+ years out of warranty and they treated issues I had as if I had bought it six months ago even though I kept reminding them I did not expect them to. Also Baratza is the only company out there making a weight based grinder, R&D spent on home user and not commercial, two thumbs up from me!
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 2,313 Location: PNW Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2012, 12:45pm Subject: Re: Higher end grinders - Why So Large?
And only time will tell if Baratza grinders will last the home user's life time. I am betting they will. I believe with Macy's selling more home espresso machines in the US (I make this judgement only by how many they have on the shelf compared to 10 years ago) I think there might be a growing market for a better grinder for home use as the common US person gets the idea there is more than drip out there. (and I think Starbucks was a huge player in this) Also the number of espresso shops out in Podunkville, means a more educated US populous because they are now drinking espresso based drinks when say 20 years ago they had only heard about that in movies set in Italy. I know the espresso thing was probably in full swing here in the PNW over 20 years ago, I am talking about the middle of the country, where I grew up.
Coffeenoobie
Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder. My coffee treasure map... Click Here (maps.google.com)
germantownrob Senior Member Joined: 2 Dec 2007 Posts: 2,005 Location: Philadelphia Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,... Drip: Brazen Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2012, 3:35pm Subject: Re: Higher end grinders - Why So Large?
Helen, I did kill my motor on my Vario in under 3 years of very heavy use, the good thing is that you can repair just about anything on the Baratza grinders and Baratza takes care of you years down the road with great customer service. Will they last a lifetime? Not in my home, lol.
Yes I can attest to there being a huge coffee culture along the entire west coast 20+ years ago. I guess I was around 19 when I had my first Latte and I couldn't believe these things where legal after my 4th one. Now for educated coffee drinkers, the specialty coffee market is still under 10% but many people are willing to fork over $3+ for crap espresso drinks nowadays just about anywhere.
bamaster Senior Member Joined: 16 Aug 2010 Posts: 94 Location: Houston, TX Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: Mini Vivaldi I Grinder: Mahlkonig ProM
Posted Mon Mar 19, 2012, 5:42pm Subject: Re: Higher end grinders - Why So Large?
tek Said:
For reasonably i.e. home sized grinder I don't think there is anything much better than Mahlkonig ProM Espresso. Grind quality is at titan level and its shockingly forgiving (maybe even more so than Compak K-10) and no fuss to use...
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