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MichaelCox
Senior Member
MichaelCox
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Phx, AZ
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri May 23, 2014, 11:20pm
Subject: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

Hello everyone,

I'm new around here so bare with me if I post something wrong. I've been reading the threads for a few weeks now and there is a ton of info here but I didn't find exactly what (I think) I want to know.

Quick background:
I'm opening a bakery & cafe and am trying to make sure I get the right equipment. Before I knew much I bought a Brasilia portofino 4 group with a cupola (Honestly wouldn't matter how much I knew or didn't know I fell in love with the way the machine looks). Then after much reading on here I learned that I should have payed a lot of attention to the grinder, who would have thought a grinder could impact the quality of your cup?

Budget:
Don't really have one but I don't want to spend money just to spend it so I can say "Mine is bigger than yours!"

Cups per day:
I have no clue, based on an article or book I read it was suggested you can/could do 2% of your traffic count. based on 15K cars/day I would say maybe 200 cups but honestly I think that was just a number pulled out of the air and I'm expecting half that.

Experience:
In this business none, but I'm no stranger to business.

Grinder Question/s:
I'm thinking I would go with a Mazzer Mini Type-B I like the look and the size fits the space I have for it. I know/think I will need one for decafe as well.
I did call SCG twice and got conflicting answers. I asked if I could use the Type-B for commercial use and was told "Sure people do it all the time." called back to ask about the Major and told them I was looking at the Type-B and was told it wouldn't work. So now I'm completely lost.

It was suggested to me that if I go withh the Mazzer brand I could just buy and extra hopper for the decafe beans and change it out when we get a decafe order. Not sure that's a good idea.

Another thing I'm curious about is at what point (budget wise) do you start hitting diminishing return? At some point as in with all things you're just paying for options that most will never use or understand IMHO.

Grinder Recap:
Mazzer Mini Type-B
Mazzer Major


I appreciate honest feedback and any and all help.

Regards,
Michael
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MarkPrince
Moderator


Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 5,618
Location: Vancouver, BC
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: KvdW Speedster
Grinder: Versalab M3 Grinder
Vac Pot: A bit too many
Drip: Bonavita
Roaster: Hario Glass Retro Roaster
Posted Sat May 24, 2014, 1:59am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

I really don't recommend the Mazzer Mini for any kind of cafe use. It's too slow.

On ebay, people are scoring Macap MX grinder for $175, Majors and Super Jolys for $250-$350. With those kind of prices, I'd definitely go for something that can handle volume. You should be able to score a mint condition Super Jolly for around $450ish, or a Mint Major for same or a bit more. The Macap MX is a nice grinder too (its a series line). Also might want to consider new (or refurb) Compak K6.

Mark

 
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NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,047
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Sat May 24, 2014, 3:10am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

Welcome to CoffeeGeek!

The Mazzer Mini is a prosumer grinder (more or less) for home use, IMHO not suited for commercial use. What you'll need is, depending on how many different types of coffee you plan to serve (e.g. regular and decaf), one or several commercial grade grinders like a Mahlkönig K30, Mahlkönig K30 Twin, Mahlkönig K60 ES, Compak E10 Conic OD or Master Conic OD, Compak E8 OD, Mazzer Kony or Kony Elettronico, Mazzer Robur or Robur Elettronico, Quamar M80E or the likes.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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MichaelCox
Senior Member
MichaelCox
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Phx, AZ
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat May 24, 2014, 7:10am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

Thank you both for the replies, I'll start looking at those you have suggested. I'm assuming that if the Brazzer Mini is too small the Ceado e37s is also?

Again thank you for your time.
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EricBNC
Senior Member
EricBNC
Joined: 22 Jun 2010
Posts: 1,869
Location: North Carolina
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: QM Silvano, LP Stradivarius,...
Grinder: K30, Major, Preciso, Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam C30, Bodum Santos...
Drip: Bonavita BV-1800,...
Roaster: Behmor, Melitta, Fresh...
Posted Sat May 24, 2014, 8:16am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

I would check local restaurant/coffee equipment supply houses and see what is available. Service is important for a business. Also, a back up grinder could save you if something happens during a busy time. On build quality alone, I think the Mazzer Major is a durable, fast grinder that can handle high volume once the business starts taking off.

 
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,308
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sat May 24, 2014, 8:43am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

The Mazzer Mini is not a commercial grinder.  It's slow and won't stand up to the kind of abuse machinery inevitably gets in a commercial setting.

The Ceado E37s, and E10 (same size, different "interfaces," different dosers, different motors) are both fine.  

The problem with this thread is that it's taking a very scatter-shot approach.  I could list at least a couple of dozen grinders which would work for you but if I don't give you some way of understanding how they differ from one another and what those differences would make to you, you won't get much out of it.

First, a bakery/cafe which does the sort of service you're envisioning needs at least three grinders.  Two for espresso (one regular, one decaf), and one for brew.  

Commercial espresso grinders can be broken up into a few types, depending on burr size, burr geometry; and doser type.  

For commercial use, you're looking at medium size flats (~65mm diameter), large flats (~80mm dia), and large conicals (68mm and 71mm).  

Generally, bigger flats cost more, grind faster, and grind "better" than medium flats.  But there are a couple of grinders which outperform their burr size.  A medium, commercial flat, like a "Super Jolly" would probably be a good choice for decaf service.  You'll probably want a large flat or conical for your regular espresso service.  FWIW, the Ceado E37s is a large flat; while the Mazzer Mini's burrs are too small to even be considered "medium."  

The "cost effectiveness return" analysis for a bigger grinder not only includes better and faster grinding, but the marketing prestige of a name brand big-boy on your counter.  Considering that you're not aiming primarily at specialty coffee nor are a roaster; and that as a bakery some huge percentage of your espresso service will be milk drinks, a big flat is probably more effective for you than a large conical.  Be aware though, that a large conical will give you a little extra "in the cup" that a large flat cannot.

Modern, commercial grinders come with two types of dosers, and may be used with three types of dosing schemes.  You can either get a mechanical, nose mounted doser which can either be filled and mechanically dosed (bad idea, grinds get stale very fast), "time dosed" via an internal or external timer, or "single dosed" (by weight).  Single dosing is also a bad idea because it's too slow, fussy and generally inappropriate for what you want to do.  

Time dosing is the only scheme which makes sense in a commercial situation, which takes us to the other type of doser.  That''s electronic, "on demand" (aka "walk up").  By definition, they time dose.  Most people think of on demand grinders as "doserless" (confusing, I know) since they dispense the grounds directly into the pf, rather than passing them through a mechanical doser.

Grinders with mechanical dosers (even with a timer added), are considerably less expensive than their otherwise identical "on demand" brothers.  That's one thing you want to think about in terms of diminishing returns.  Personally, I think "on demand" is worth the extra money for your primary grinder in terms of time, and prevention of repetitive stress injury.  But it's not my choice.  

I also think that -- everything considered -- your best choice would be an on-demand big conical as your primary grinder, plus an on-demand big flat for decaf, but that's a lot of money for quality in the cup few of your customers will appreciate.  And, again, it's not my choice.  

I'll be happy to help you break down the market in terms of which makers and models are particularly appropriate and/or popular; but you need to make some decisions so I don't have to write a synopsis of every grinder I've ever heard about.  

Try and think more about how you're going to use something, what drinks you plan on making, and those sorts of things rather than particular makes/models; unless you have questions about particular grinders which are available to you used, in good shape, and without significant commercial mileage.  

One thing I can tell you is that you and your staff are going to need a great deal of training.  You, even more than they.  No one can pick up the necessities of good espresso in a couple of hours "on the job."  

Ask lots of questions,
Rich
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MichaelCox
Senior Member
MichaelCox
Joined: 23 May 2014
Posts: 4
Location: Phx, AZ
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat May 24, 2014, 11:52am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

Hello BDL,

I went and read some of your post about the E92 on HB that mixed with your comments here I'm back to square one.

I'm not sure I fully understand what you were asking me to decide so you can help me further but here's what I think you wanted.

I need two grinders Reg and Decafe (I'm not doing drip, we'll make Americanos).

My understanding is the flat burrs provide a more chocolate and nut flavors and the conicals burrs provide more floral and acidity. It's my thought process that I would prefer the flat burr if what I stated is true. It would seem to me most people would like the chocolate over floral but that's just a guess on my part and not an educated one and if wrong please correct me.

I like the idea of the doserless, walk up, on demand or whatever you want to call it. I've read that some of the more hardcore aficionados prefer a doser but honestly (again an uneducated guess) it seems to me that if the grinder is set properly and checked on a routine schedule you would have more consistency since it's plausible we would/could have more than one person making drinks. I would just think as long as they pay attention to the 1 shot vs. 2 shot factor we as a business would be more consistent for the customer.

As far as a menu its not completed yet so I can't help you help me there just yet. I also agree on the training just not sure where that is going to come from yet. I know our roaster (Passport) will provide training but honestly I don't know enough to know if that will be sufficient or if I need to do something more extensive.

Don't think this matters but in the spirit of full disclosure, we are located in a strip mall on the NE corner (no drive thru), on the NW corner is a Circle K, on the SW corner is a Chevron, and on the SE corner is a DD and a McD's. I'm not worried from a competition stand point for the sole fact I don't believe people buying DD or McD's or gas station coffee are our target customer anyway.

Lastly the E37s fits better in the space I'd like to place it over the E92 but I could make either work just fine.
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NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 2,047
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 1:56am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

MichaelCox Said:

It was suggested to me that if I go withh the Mazzer brand I could just buy and extra hopper for the decafe beans and change it out when we get a decafe order. Not sure that's a good idea.

Posted May 23, 2014 link

Indeed, that's not a good idea. At least not if you plan to serve decent espresso, because different beans will require different grinder settings in order to get extraction right. You simply cannot start dialing in your grinder all the time.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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__________
Senior Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2006
Posts: 917
Location: .
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Machine now fixed ;o)
Grinder: None
Vac Pot: None
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 3:39am
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

Hello, Michael.

In reading the advice given on here, it's as well to bear in mind that the large majority of contributors are "informed amateurs" who make espresso at home, and not coffee shop owners. The requirements of home enthusiasts and commercial users can be quite different in some areas. The only valid comparisons of different makes/models in a commercial environment are those you would get from commercial operators.  If it were me, I'd be visiting a few local coffee shops and see what they are using. Good grinders might seem expensive, but they tend to have a very long service life so are a good initial investment.

As an "informed amateur" my only observations would be:-

I would buy equipment that can be serviced quickly and easily, although grinders are fairly simple machines, and most any commercial brand is likely to be very reliable.

The Mazzer mini - especially the electronic doserless versions, will be too slow for a busy-ish operation (I have one). Grind speed isn't so much of a problem with doser models, as you fill the doser in advance, but none of the mini versions are really a high volume device. It would, however, probably be a good fit as a second decaf or low volume speciality coffee grinder if you go in that direction.  Contrary to a view expressed earlier, although they may have different levels of performance, all Mazzer grinders are made to the same build quality, best described as "heavily engineered" and are designed for commercial environments.

Single grinder/2 hoppers won't work for the reasons Nobby has explained, and also because even though the hoppers have a slide to close them off, you would then have to purge a great deal of beans before adding the other hopper, as a lot will remain in the throat of the grinder.
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,308
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 4:49pm
Subject: Re: Commercial Grinder Questions
 

Hi Mike,

I sent you an email with my phone number.  You've brought up so many questions that it would take too long to address them all in a post.  Give me a call and we'll talk about them.

Rich
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