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insatiableOne
Senior Member


Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 10
Location: us
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: LaPavoni Stradivari...
Grinder: Rosco Mini ,Baratza Maestro...
Drip: De'Longhi
Roaster: Behmor 1600 Plus
Posted Sat May 31, 2014, 5:31pm
Subject: different grinder needed
 

Recently purchased a LaPavoni STRADIVARI GRAN ROMANTICA - SGR.

Trying to use my Baratza maestro plus, the coffee just runs straight through with no crema what so ever.
The grind is unable to go fine enough, even with the 40 settings.

After somewhat extensive research, the Mazzer Mini- type B, electronic, doserless seems to get my attention.
I am looking to buy a stepless, doserless grinder for the is infinite adjustment and not to let a bunch of grounds get wasted.
This is  just for home use, although I do drink espresso ALL day long.

Prefer to try and stay around $1,000 or so...
Not looking  to upgrade again in the future.
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NightFlight
Senior Member


Joined: 30 Apr 2013
Posts: 20
Location: Great Lakes Bay Region
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: BDB920BSXL
Grinder: Ceado E37s
Vac Pot: Cona
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Behmor
Posted Sat May 31, 2014, 8:57pm
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

Have a look at the Ceado E37s. Got mine for 974.00 + free shipping +no tax. You will not regret the decision and never look back.

 
Coffee is a language in itself.
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Angman
Senior Member
Angman
Joined: 8 Apr 2012
Posts: 239
Location: Vancouver BC
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Strega, MCal, Cimbali M20L
Grinder: K10 Fresh, HG One 83mm,...
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: Technivorm, Hario Woodneck,...
Roaster: Hottop 8828P
Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014, 12:43am
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

In that price range new you have many options including the one mentioned above.  Does size matter?  The Baratza Vario/Vario-W is very good for half your budget.  The Baratza Forte is close to the Mini's price as well.  The HG One is a little over budget new I think but would be an excellent and beautiful pairing to the Stradivari.
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insatiableOne
Senior Member


Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 10
Location: us
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: LaPavoni Stradivari...
Grinder: Rosco Mini ,Baratza Maestro...
Drip: De'Longhi
Roaster: Behmor 1600 Plus
Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014, 2:22am
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

I cannot imagine cranking a hundred rotations for one cup on the HG One. The K10 fresh, also K30 Vario seems to pop up more and more.
If I need to save up for a $2,000 leap, well is it worth that much in comparison or no?
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,275
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014, 7:53am
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

The K-10 Fresh was Compak's "on demand" (i.e., electronic interface, time-dosing, "doserless") big conical.  No longer in production, it's to be replaced in the next few weeks with the E-10 and F-10 lines (a couple or three individual models in each line).  The E and F share the same internals but the E-10 has a simpler interface and a less expensive adjustment scheme.  Both use the same 68mm burr set as the K-10, but a more powerful motor, so you should expect identical results from the E and F -- perhaps very slightly better than the K.  

The K-10 PB is the same burr set and motor as the old K-10 Fresh, but it has a mechanical, sweeping, nose mounted doser.  It may be the best choice on the market if you're going to single dose.  

The Mahlkoning K30 Vario competes very evenly "in the cup," and in most of what I call "use" characteristics  with a bunch of big flats.  It's an excellent grinder which out performs its burr size but it's not a huge stand out.  There are other flat burr grinders which do the same things as well, but for less or the same money.  By way of example only, Anfim Supercaimano, Ceado E37s, Ceado E10, Compak K8, and Mazzer Major.  FWIW, I think the E37s is an outstanding recommendation.    

Like espresso machines, grinders tend to fall into classes and -- not there aren't important differences in how you'd experience them at home -- there are very few ("few" isn't the same as "none") which really bust out for performance or price.    

At $1000, you enter the world of the "big flats" with mechanical dosers.  For another few hundred you add either on-demand electronics or move into big conicals with mechanical dosers; and for a few hundred more you're looking at on-demand big conicals.  

From an "in the cup" standpoint you can expect a little more from a big conical than from a big flat.  "Use" and mechanical qualities are more manufacturer and model specific.  Expect an on-demand big conical to cost $1650+, when all is said and done.  If you're serious about spending that kind of money for a grinder that size, I think what I use -- the Ceado E92 -- is top of the heap.  

In terms of making a recommendation for you, it would help us a lot if you could narrow the field in terms of what you really want, and what you're willing to compromise.   It's a little confusing to have you put your budget at $1000 while listing the K10 Fresh and K30 Vario as possibilities.  

Is the jump into big conicals worth the money?  It was to me.  I decided to replace my La Cimbali Junior Max because it was such a PITA, not because I had complaints about its in the cup qualities which are in the same "excellent" league as the K30.  I looked at a group composed of the Compak K-10, Mahlkonig K30 and Mazzer Robur, all of which were familiar to me; and added the Anfim Supercaimano and Ceado E92 to it based on some online forum and blog recommendations and the parallel interest of an online coffee friend who was looking at the same group.  

My favorite of the familiar grinders was the Mazzer Robur E, but (a) I've never liked adjusting Mazzers, and (b) it's really expensive -- even by these standards.  I took a chance on the E92 half because it seemed to fit all my needs, and half because of reservations I had about each of the other grinders on the list.  

However, the in the cup differences between the Cimbali and the E92 were startling, and all in favor of the Ceado.  In that sense, I find the E92 indistinguishable from the Robur; and that's a very good thing.  It's even more civilized than the K10, and that's a very good thing too.

Worth it to you?  Don't know.  

Rich
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insatiableOne
Senior Member


Joined: 31 May 2014
Posts: 10
Location: us
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: LaPavoni Stradivari...
Grinder: Rosco Mini ,Baratza Maestro...
Drip: De'Longhi
Roaster: Behmor 1600 Plus
Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014, 8:26am
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

Thank you for this outstanding rundown, as well of all the other replies are most appreciative.

Choosing a grinder is confusing, with all of the different models available.

I am willing to compromise on cost. If adding an extra couple hundred, or even a thousand more  gets me the machine I need to do the job without needing to upgrade in the future is what I am searching for.

I paid over $2,000 for one of the best manual espresso makers made. I don't want to miss out by selling myself short with a grinder that fails to meet its optimal potential for a great cup of espresso, not wanting to settle for just OK or mediocre. I absolutely cannot stand bitter, or woodsy tasting shots.
It would be nice to not need sugar with my shot.
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IMAWriter
Senior Member
IMAWriter
Joined: 4 Jul 2002
Posts: 5,882
Location: Brentwood, TN
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Strega
Grinder: Forte, OE Pharos,...
Vac Pot: Adcraft SS, Yama 8 cup
Drip: Brazen, Kalita, Chemex,...
Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Sun Jun 1, 2014, 11:12am
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

Angman Said:

In that price range new you have many options including the one mentioned above.  Does size matter?  The Baratza Vario/Vario-W is very good for half your budget.  The Baratza Forte is close to the Mini's price as well.  The HG One is a little over budget new I think but would be an excellent and beautiful pairing to the Stradivari.

Posted June 1, 2014 link

+1 pm the HG! paring...awesome. Also, the Forte (with the ceramic burrs, I own one) is incredibly user friendly, neat, no waste, compact, and produces a grind IMO superior to a Mazzer SJ, and from recent experience significantly better than a miniE. IMO, the MiniE is overpriced, even with the slightly larger burr. We had really clumpy grinding from that grinder, even with non oily beans, and 50%+ humidity.

The Vario-W is much as good as the Forte, and as was said, for nearly half the price. Not as solidly built as the Forte, but much the same grind.
I've heard VERY good things regarding the Ceado as well. However, if the burrs are 64mm, then for $375+ new burrs, a used SJ would do very well, if size, neatness, and a little retention aren't an issue.

It sounds like our OP is a smart cookie, willing to spend 1k on a grinder.
Man, that HG One..or perhaps a Pharos ( I have one of those as well) would be an awesome plan, if you could FIND a Pharos.

Whew, my head's spinning! LOL

 
Rob J (LMWDP #187)
My Music Production web site:
www.robertjason.com
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,275
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Jun 2, 2014, 10:25am
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

Rob,

IMAWriter Said:

I've heard VERY good things regarding the Ceado as well. However, if the burrs are 64mm...

Posted June 1, 2014 link

The E37s and E10 are both 83mm flats.  The E37s is an on-demand with an interface very similar to the E92's, while the E10 has a nose mounted mechanical doser, a bigger motor and lower rpms.    

They're in the Compak K8/Mazzer Major/Mahlkonig K30 class of big flats.  For reference (and in my opinion only), that's a couple of steps better than the Vario/Forte in terms of how much you get in the cup.  A "better" which can be defined almost entirely as "more," rather than "different."  I guess that's the flat burr signature.  

Man, that HG One..or perhaps a Pharos ( I have one of those as well) would be an awesome plan, if you could FIND a Pharos.

Tim wrote (in a parallel H-B thread where he was attacked by the usual suspects flock of crank turners) that he wants a motor.

insatiableOne Said:

I paid over $2,000 for one of the best manual espresso makers made. I don't want to miss out by selling myself short with a grinder that fails to meet its optimal potential for a great cup of espresso, not wanting to settle for just OK or mediocre. I absolutely cannot stand bitter, or woodsy tasting shots. It would be nice to not need sugar with my shot.

Posted June 1, 2014 link

Until I read this I had some questions about whether to suggest a big flat or a big conical.  

The big flats are "excellent" grinders, but -- with a couple of exceptions which don't matter here -- they don't bring as much to the party as the big conicals.  To put it another way, the big conicals do everything the big flats do, and more.  Clearly you want a big conical.  Might as well say good bye to your money, your counter space and quit anguishing over it.  

Speaking of counter-space, be aware that these are BIG grinders; and that -- with one exception -- none will fit under kitchen cabinets.  

Here's a short list:
  • Ceado E92;
  • Compak K10 PB, E Fresh, F Fresh;
  • Macap M7D; and
  • Mazzer Robur, Robur E.  

There are a few other grinders you might want to talk about, and I'm open to that.  If you get specific, you'll probably drag some people with specific knowledge about those -- whatever they are -- as well.  

(FWIW, I put the M7D on the list because it's very well regarded and (for the first time in a long time) has good US retailer support, even though I haven't tried it.  I left the Elektra Nino off the list because it is ridiculously overpriced; the Fiorenazato Doge Conico is HUGE bang for the buck, but it's also a monumental pain; and the Mazzer Konys don't represent enough of a savings over their Robur brethren.)  

I did a lot of grinder chasing in the past few months while looking for a new grinder for myself, and ended up with enough experience with the Ceado, the Compaks, and the Roburs (as well as the Anfim and Mahlkonig flats, and the La Cimbali hybrid) to know how they compare.  My feeling was that the Ceado and Robur were tied for best "in the cup," and the Ceado and Compak Fresh were tied for best "in use."

Specifically the Ceado, Compaks and Roburs did the same levels of "top end" sparkle, separation, and nuance but the Ceado and Robur did better mouthfeel; while the Ceado and Compak were easier to adjust and neater than the Robur.  They're all better than excellent,"uber-Titan" if you will, and drawing distinctions between them -- even after dialing-in and grinding scores of cups of coffee -- comes down to picking fly $hit out of pepper.  

The exception to the "too tall" rule is the Compak K10 PB when set up with a funnel, instead of a hopper, for single dosing.  If you're in to single dosing, the K10 PB is probably the best choice for that reason as well as its excellent grind path and doser.

I bought a Ceado E92 in November and it's been great.  Better than hoped, actually.  If I had to do it again, knowing what I know now, I'd make the same decision.

Rich
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Angman
Senior Member
Angman
Joined: 8 Apr 2012
Posts: 239
Location: Vancouver BC
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Strega, MCal, Cimbali M20L
Grinder: K10 Fresh, HG One 83mm,...
Vac Pot: Nope
Drip: Technivorm, Hario Woodneck,...
Roaster: Hottop 8828P
Posted Mon Jun 2, 2014, 3:59pm
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

In regards to 100+ revolutions to make a shot on the HK One. Outside of first receiving my grinder and for testing purposes only I have never counted how many revolutions it takes.  It is such a pleasure to use in my opinion and enjoy the process very much.  It would certainly compliment your 2K manual lever very well.  I also have the K10 Fresh but honestly never use it since purchasing the HG One.  Having said this I also had the Pharos in regular form and fully Voodoodaddy modded form.  I absolutely hated it and how awkward it was to grind with.  The Pharos was never used in my house and subsequently sold.  I also compared the HG One to my Mazzer Major before and the total time to grind on the HG One and cleanup was the same if not less than the bump and grind with my dosered Mazzer Major. Of course my experience is all with single dosing and small quantities making a few cups for guests.  If you're churning out a dozen shots, hand grinding is not recommended.
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cxmudandrocknroll
Senior Member


Joined: 27 Mar 2014
Posts: 3
Location: Princeton, NJ
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Fiorenzato Bricoletta
Grinder: HG-ONE, Krups GX610050,...
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Chemex
Roaster: Heart Roasters
Posted Mon Jun 2, 2014, 5:32pm
Subject: Re: different grinder needed
 

re: hg one 100+ revs.  
i dose 21-22g depending on the coffee (mostly light roasts), i only do around 30-35 revolutions on the hg one.   to me, it's perfect grinder for your lapav.
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