stanley_c_wong Senior Member Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Singapore Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Silvia, Krups 5020 Grinder: Rocky
Posted Mon Feb 21, 2011, 12:00am Subject: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
I have a Rancilio Silvia and Rocky combo. With a single hole steam wand. And I use Skim milk. (I know it is not ideal but I drink a lot of lattes and I have to cut down somehow). Sometimes my extraction is off. Or my beans not all that fresh. More commonly my frothed milk looks like dishwater. But in the 3 years that I have been using this setup, often, more often of late, I have been able to get everything right. But my latte art still sucks.
Mostly, the "white" spot does not appear until the cup is almost full. Or immediately upon pouring, I have a white foam "cap" over the crema.
I think I am supposed to pour away the first bit of foam before pouring into the cup. But I am not sure. Help?
Also, I think I realized a serious mistake. It took me this long to realize it. But then again, it does not seem to be written down anywhere; I have been extracting 2 shots into 2 cups then steaming milk enough for both in a 20oz milk pitcher. I think the major mistake is this; when I see the real professionals do it, they only froth enough for 1 cup at a time. Am I right? Have I been making a major mistake by frothing for 2 cups, then trying to pour from the same pitcher? I do note that the foam in one cup tends to be more than the other cup.
Any advice would be welcomed.
btw. I know nice latte art does not improve the taste of the coffee by much but it is something I would like to be good at.
espressobecky Senior Member Joined: 12 Nov 2002 Posts: 671 Location: Northern BC Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto II Grinder: Mazzer Major, Baratza... Vac Pot: Hario TCA-3 Drip: French Press Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Feb 21, 2011, 5:34am Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
I've always steamed the milk separately for multiple drinks, but I can't say that I've actually heard anyone say that you "have" to do it that way. But, you're right, I don't think I've ever seen a reputable cafe steam for more than one drink at a time.
As far as the pour goes, have you watched many latte art videos? There are a number on youtube or do a coffeegeek search. I find that if the "white spot" doesn't appear early enough it's probably because you're not pouring quickly enough (or no foam). If there is too much foam (easily done with skim milk), that could explain the immediate "cap". Do you brew your espresso first and then steam the milk? If the steamed milk sits on the counter while you're brewing espresso, that would also explain some of your frustration as the foam will separate from the milk.
I don't pour away the first bit of foam, but have seen reputable cafes do it.
Posted Mon Feb 21, 2011, 9:46am Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
espressobecky Said:
I've always steamed the milk separately for multiple drinks, but I can't say that I've actually heard anyone say that you "have" to do it that way. But, you're right, I don't think I've ever seen a reputable cafe steam for more than one drink at a time.
Cafes OFTEN steam for multiple drinks at a time....that's what those big pitchers and large hole steam wands are for. During busy hours orders for numerous milk drinks come in at once, if you need to pour, say, 8 capps and have a line of people waiting, would you steam 8 single 12oz pitchers or 2 large 1l pitchers? :) They'll all be poured and served right away all at once. Even for the WBC, competitors will usually steam for the 4 judges in 1 or 2 pitchers. They will usually POUR from a small pitcher for the art, but they'll steam it together. The catch is, of course, if you do a poor job on a pitcher, you now have 4 unhappy customers instead of 1 ;)
For me, personally, I find it's easier to steam 2 capps at once in a 16/17oz pitcher than 1 drink at a time in a 12oz pitcher, at least without more waste, though it's surely common to do one at a time.
stanley_c_wong Senior Member Joined: 23 Oct 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Singapore Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Silvia, Krups 5020 Grinder: Rocky
Posted Tue Feb 22, 2011, 8:42pm Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
Thank you for the reply.
Becky,
I extract then steam. But there is a wait of about 3 mins before the machine is ready to steam milk.
I only have a 20 oz pitcher and the steam wand on the Silvia is a bit too short such that I need to fill up the pitcher at least halfway before I can do proper steaming. Less milk and I would not be able to spin it well.
Yeah, I have seen numerous videos, which is why I feel disappointed in my ability to do just like the videos even after so long.
Tamper,
I might try to do just that; streaming for 2 in a 20 oz then transferring to a 12 oz for the control. Thanks.
rcsmuk Senior Member Joined: 7 Jan 2011 Posts: 3 Location: Stamford Expertise: Just starting
Posted Mon Mar 28, 2011, 10:36am Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
Interesting thread...it almost answered my question which is very similar :)
yes - i have watched just about every youtube video on the web :D
I have a Bezzera BZ02SDE, replaced the 4 hole with a 2-hole tip. In a 20oz pitcher i get what looks like good microfoam, but like the original poster have a hard time getting any type of pattern.
The 1st thing i changed was the "post steaming" treatment. I rest briefly, tap several times and aggresively swirl till i get a satiny mass. That started getting me closer to pouring a pattern. Not nearly recognizable though.
Then i changed to a 12 oz pitcher which I fill about half-way. To my pleasant suprise I now get more consistently good micro foam and get the beginnings of a pattern.
So, for the experienced coaches out there:
1) what am I doing wrong to get better foam with a 12oz pitcher then with a 20oz pitcher? 2) how much volume increase do you expect during stretching? I've been going for 50% or more...could that be an issue?
Jarrycanada Senior Member Joined: 14 Jun 2005 Posts: 26 Location: Edmonton Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Rancilio Silvia 10 years old Grinder: Rocky 10 years old too
Posted Mon Mar 28, 2011, 12:53pm Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
well my understanding is that home espresso machines have a smaller boiling tank, that doesn't hold as much water to steam with at a time as commercial machines do. those machines have there own boiler just for steam. so you simply run out of dry steam faster, as the boiler isn't as big in a home Espresso that happens very easily and makes it a lot harder to get good micro foam. the key to getting good micro foam is having that dry steam to begin with and keeping it dry.
What i do is do my shot first, then turn the boiler mode on and wait for the light to go out. then once that happens, drain that steam tell the boiler light goes on again. then wait 20 seconds and start steaming my milk. I have the version V1 Silvia and just one hole on my wand but I may replace that with a v3 wand as I've heard it's a bit better but not sure. anyway and it doesn't do a bad job at making Micro foam. I am using a 20oz pitcher Espro toroid pitcher and that takes some time getting use to.
so I guess that is why your running out of good clean dry steam. so when your doing a 12 oz pitcher, your not running out of steam as fast as you are with a 20 oz, Have you tried bleeding the steam off, like I just said.?
rcsmuk Senior Member Joined: 7 Jan 2011 Posts: 3 Location: Stamford Expertise: Just starting
Posted Tue Mar 29, 2011, 9:45am Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
Thanks Jarrey.
The Bezzera is an HX machine with boatloads of very dry steam, so that doesn't seem to be the issue.
I'm wondering if I'm just trying to create too much volume. Oftentimes the real volume growth doesn't happen till after 120/130 degrees; so, i'm going to experiment a bit with "going deep" at 100/110 and seeing what texture I end up with.
Hotel_Barista Senior Member Joined: 29 Mar 2011 Posts: 14 Location: Tasmania, Australia Expertise: Pro Barista
Posted Thu Mar 31, 2011, 4:35pm Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
Okay so i can probably hand over a few tips for latte art and steaming milk that may help both "stanley c wong" and "rcsmuk"....
Steaming. Unless i'm doing coffee for sit down customers and i know i have time or if i'm doing single T/A coffees i will always use a larger jug. Secondly if the coffees i'm pouring from that jug are the same (e.g. latte and a latte) then i'll do what is called "splitting the milk" or "splitting the jug". This is when i steam enough foam for two coffees but i want to get equal amounts in each cup (this also helps when doing art because the first coffee doesn't have too much foam to work with and the second too little). My steaming technique depends on what coffee i'm making. let's say a flat white or latte. I spurge the wand (turn it on then off to get rid of any water that may come out) and then place it deep in the jug. Turn on the wand. Bring it to the surface (JUST) and pick a spot by angling my jug that keeps the milk rotating. Here is where you make or break good microfoam. I keep my wand tip in the same place when making flat whites, i don't move it at all. once the milk has stretched enough for that coffee it basically moves my tip under the milk on it's own. My milk usually comes out pretty good and i've used a bunch of different machines with all the different number of holes and this still gives me great milk even on my first try on a new machine.
Another tip for pouring art is of course how you pour in the milk. I find if i pour in my milk in a different way to how i currently do it then i have a lot of trouble with my art. My technique is to tip the cup (with the shot in it) onto an angle. Not just a bit. A good solid angle. when pouring the milk i don't just tip toe around it i give it a quick pour just for the first second to see how milk is going to sit with the coffee. I then ease up a bit and drag the crema around to the edges of the cup with my milk and finally when i'm ready to start creating my art i'll pour into one spot (depending on what pattern i choose to make) until the foam comes through then i jiggle the jug (or don't) etc etc.
Now of course this is all in a quick period of time within about 4 or 5 seconds but i have used this technique for a while and i learnt it by trial and error.
I've used both the steaming technique and the pouring technique on some terrible machines like a 40 dollar sunbeam or and 80 dollar breville and even when pouring hot chocolates but i'm just sharing my way. it may not work for anyone else.
p.s. sorry about the rant i like to call it passion :)
rcsmuk Senior Member Joined: 7 Jan 2011 Posts: 3 Location: Stamford Expertise: Just starting
Posted Fri Apr 1, 2011, 9:11am Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia. Latte Art Help Requested.
Hotel...thanks for that. You are confirming what i was beginning to realize: namely that I've probably been overstretching for latte art. Great texture on the cappuchinos but hard to pour art with all that foam :)
Also with any big bubbles you may get rather than just pouring some down the sink sometimes grabbing a teaspoon and just lightly scrapping them off the top works for me.
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