djmitchella Senior Member Joined: 1 Jan 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Calgary Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sun Jan 1, 2012, 7:58pm Subject: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
Equipment: NS Oscar, standard 4-hole tip with two of the holes plugged.
How do I know when to stop stretching? Right now, I can get decent latte art something around half the time, but it feels like my technique is a bit 'blind', for want of a better term. I make the shot of espresso, I pour milk into the jug, I stretch the milk with the tip in the 'silent' zone to a count of "9 one thousand" then I move the tip down and swirl until the milk is smooth and the jug is "too hot to hold", then I pour.
The espresso is (mostly) under control; the swirl is fine, the pour is getting there, but timing of the stretching stage is very picky. 8 seconds and it's too thin; 10 seconds and it's too thick, so if I get distracted while counting up to "nine one thousand", all bets are off. Is there a way to tell when the milk is stretched enough, without counting? I can't really "see" if it's stretched enough because it's swirling around so it's hard to tell the volume increase -- should I be using a thermometer? Keeping an eye on that as well as keeping the steam tip in the right place would be a lot to keep track of.
If I'm lucky, I can get two decent pours in a row (see attachment), but it seems to be a matter of luck as much as anything else, so I'd like to try and get things a bit more predictable.
Posted Sun Jan 1, 2012, 10:12pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
I have to say, your results would please (me included) a good many members here! In MY defense, producing latte art on a manual lever is a bit problematic.
I'd have to say you must have some real steam power there to facilitate stretching in 9 seconds. Or is your machine set high to facilitate better steam. I'm probably wrong here, but is the Oscar's stat adjustable?
As to your question, the milk you use would HAVE to play a part in how long to stretch. For instance, a certain brand of 2% Organic i love will always be consistent, yet when my wife brings home another brand, i never get the quantity nor quality of textured milk. Some say it has to do with the milk protein.
Whole organic milk is a joy, but my daughter prefers the 2%. Again, all I can say is there are factors that might change your timings, such as how hot your machine is, length of a previous cool down flush before pulling the shot, how long you wait after the pull (unless your Oscar permits simultaneous steaming and shot pull as many HX machines do.) And, as I mentioned the milk it self. Oh yeah, the jug you're using.
Still. it seems you are doing quite well already. I'm sure others here might be able to help better than I. I'm a stright shot guy, so steaming is not necessarily my expertise! :>D
djmitchella Senior Member Joined: 1 Jan 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Calgary Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012, 1:19pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
Yes, I know that many things can change the time it takes -- chilled jug / not is another one, for instance. What I'm wondering is if there's any objective way (other than time) to know when the milk is stretched enough, so that if these things _have_ changed I can work out when is the right time to stop, other than just using trial and error until I find it.
sandro123 Senior Member Joined: 11 Nov 2009 Posts: 14 Location: Scotland Expertise: I live coffee
Posted Mon Jan 9, 2012, 2:36pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
I've read suggestions that you want to volume of milk to double when you stretch, though sometimes i find that to be too much. I would suggest that you just trial with different volumes until you get the flavor and texture that you like. Stretch til the volume is 25% more, 50% more, 75%, 100% and so on. That way you have a visual way to judge each time you steam your milk. If you struggle to see the volume increasing then keep the jug still at the same angle and you should still be able to see the milk creeping up the side of the jug.
I would suggest trying to heat the milk a little less as well, "too hot to hold" is too hot for me. Different temperatures change the flavor of the milk too.
bugawako Senior Member Joined: 11 Jan 2012 Posts: 7 Location: California Expertise: Just starting
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012, 6:24pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
I suggest using a thermometer while you experiment. It'll take a lot out of the guesswork and once you find your sweet spot, you'll be able to reproduce it again and again. As you watch the thermometer, take a look at the level of the milk too. Eventually you'll know when to start dunking the tip and when to stop. Good luck!
djmitchella Senior Member Joined: 1 Jan 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Calgary Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012, 8:25pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
Thanks for the tips -- I'll keep on watching, I guess, and it certainly can't hurt to try a thermometer, I have one sitting around.
Doubling the volume before I start mixing would be _way_ too much -- 25% seems more like it, though possibly even less than that (though I suspect I could probably make the whole thing happen during the 'stretching' phase or the 'mixing' phase if I could find the right place to get the steam).
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 753 Location: PNW Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W Drip: Cuisinart Roaster: God help me- NO!
Posted Tue Jan 17, 2012, 11:27pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
I have finally gotten some microfoam on my Oscar 2 times in a row. Had it about a month. It is the 4 hole reduced tip that Chris' coffee sells. What I changed is staying by the side of the pitcher the whole time. I could get great micro foam on my steam toy but the Oscar was too much man for me. Anyway, one of the video's I watched said put the milk about half an inch below the start of the spout and when it goes up the start of the spout stop stretching. That and not opening up the steam at full blast. So far that has worked well for me. I am still a long way off from the constant foams I could do on the weaker machine but at least I am getting microfoam.
djmitchella Senior Member Joined: 1 Jan 2012 Posts: 5 Location: Calgary Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Sat Jan 21, 2012, 8:17pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
Well, I tried using a thermometer, and learned something interesting, though I'm not sure how to deal with it -- it turns out I've been stopping the overall process too soon all this time.
As mentioned, the Oscar is basically like having the Flying Scotsman on the countertop as far as steam production goes, so the tricky part was not over-stretching it; but the other thing I discovered is that stopping "when the jug is too hot to hold" actually means I'm stopping with the milk barely getting to 120 degrees. It's microfoam (roughly speaking), and it's fairly evenly stirred in, but it's not hot microfoam. The _jug_ is hot, because the jug is having a jet of steam spraying against it -- but the milk isn't as hot as the jug.
So I tried keeping going with the stirring stage until the thermometer told me the milk was hotter, and the final result was now a bit thicker than I'd like; I think I can resolve this if I can find a point for the steam jets that will only stir and heat but not aerate any further, or possibly a shorter stretching stage and a bit more 'airy' stirring stage, or something else -- either way, thanks for the suggestion! It's surprising what I found once I looked at objective results rather than subjective ones.
Coffeenoobie Senior Member Joined: 11 Dec 2011 Posts: 753 Location: PNW Expertise: Just starting
Espresso: N S Oscar Grinder: Vario W Drip: Cuisinart Roaster: God help me- NO!
Posted Sat Jan 21, 2012, 11:39pm Subject: Re: Timing for stretching stage -- how to know when to stop?
I judge the heat of the jug by the bottom not the sides when not using the thermometer. I have found when the bottom gets really hot it is on right on 150 when I test with thermometer. (I was surprised how consistently good my temps are by feel). When using the thermometer I stop at 140 no later than 145 the oscar seems to coast 10 more degrees or maybe it is just the thermometer is slow to react....
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